musings and misadventures: HTT

5.27.2008

HTT - Hunting Edition

There are a few topics that Mr. Dub knows not to discuss with me, mostly because I get so passionate about them that I cannot be swayed. What can I say? I'm human. That's why my weekly Hot Topic posts are usually ignorant, biased and often tongue-in-cheek. They're just my humble opinion, which is apropos since it's my blog. But I am open to reading your comments and sometimes even changing my mind, which is progress.

So I'm wondering if you can help me with this topic: hunting. Like, I'm totally against it unless you live in a cave and depend on buffalo for sustenance. I won't go into religious details here, but I've read many quotes from LDS leaders suggesting to me that hunting for sport is not acceptable.

Personally, I find hunting wrong because I just don't like the idea of someone who enjoys stalking and killing animals. Yes, it is somewhat hypocritical since I buy meat on a regular basis, but I figure the cattle rancher who brought me my hamburger is doing it for a living, not for fun. He's not going out with a couple buddies to relieve stress; he's doing it to provide for his family.

I just don't understand the thrill of pulling a trigger. To me, it reflects an inner hostility that makes me uncomfortable. I wonder if it could become a slippery slope where hurting others is a possible reaction. And no matter what, it's delighting in the bloodshed of another living thing - at least from my perspective.

Plus, in a world where all types and cuts of meat are readily available, can anyone really claim to be hunting solely to provide food? (I mean that seriously - I'd love to know what really motivates someone to hunt.)

I personally know many great men who are hunters, which makes it even more confusing. And really, there isn't much difference between hunting and fishing, yet I think of fishermen as mellow guys. But I just can't shake that feeling that hunting is bad.

Of course, it's just my opinion, and I'm dying to hear yours. I want to know if this is an ethical issue for others or just something you've always done.

Do you think hunting is OK?

Why or why not?

Shoot.

42 comments:

zeeny said...: Growing up my family (mostly the men) liked shooting guns. I never saw the fun in it. My brothers have hunted but always eat whatever they kill, even random snakes. I would not like my husband or children to hunt. Personally I don't want some random meat to eat when I could have a perfectly good steak from the store! I would never hunt, but if you do it with the purpose of eating I'm okay with it. I know people who hunt for meat save tons of money on groceries during the year...I just would rather have good ol beef!
p.s. my brothers used to try and shoot birds out of our back yard. My mom found out and from then on talked about how one of the prophets (I think McKay) talked about how we shouldn't hurt birds. I think my brothers have felt bad since.; 8:31 AM
janaya said...: while i can't say i have ever really thought about hunting as being "wrong" so much, i've never had any desire to participate. you have made me think, though... but for the sake of not having an actual argument everytime my husband and his family go hunting, i'll admit that i'm going to try not to think about what you've said too much. :) but me and guns... we're not really friends. i've been to a shooting range and shot clay pigeons once... and i was pretty good, if i do say so myself. but everytime i think about having guns in my home (or actually killing a real animal), it makes me want to puke. maybe it was watching 90210 back in the day and seeing that scott kid accidentally shoot himself with his dad's gun... but i just can't really shake the nervous feeling i have about guns... even with amo on the other side of the house. i have no desire whatsoever to protect myself with a gun... ever. give me mace or something... but guns -- i'm not interested. but your post was about hunting... so, here's my opinion:

1. if you hunt, you should absolutely 100% eat what you've killed (one major reason i don't ever want to hunt... i have no desire to eat pheasant or duck or bambi).

2. if you hunt, it isn't a good excuse to stockpile an arsenal of weapons in your basement.

3. mooseheads and antlers shouldn't be decorations... ever. maybe that's just me, but i would bet money the people on HGTV would agree.

4. if you hunt and your wife doesn't... it's only fair that she gets to spend her day at the mall blowing the same amount of money you're spending to hunt on things like shoes and clothing. really, it's only fair.

5. fishing is way cooler than hunting. period.; 8:47 AM
steph said...: i'm (more or less) with janaya on this one. i personally hate guns and the idea of killing bambi. if you kill it, you should eat it... i mos def don't think that animal carcass is home decorating fodder...

but i eat meat, and someone has to kill it, and truth be told, 99% of meat ppl eat comes from poor, tortured animals, and that's just not okay. i understand that whole 'animals aren't ppl' thing, but in my mind, that doesn't mean that they should be stuffed in teeny-tiny cages or forced to chill in their own feces... in that sense, hunting is actually better b/c one quick shot to the head (or even a shot to the gut and then one to the head...) is way less torture than being boiled alive or having your child taken from you at birth causing fits of hysteria.

the way i see it, nature is important. we need to respect nature, so while i do not hunt, if one respects nature and the animal he/she hunts, then i am okay with it. don't kill the animal for sport or amusement b/c that's not cool.

oh, and as far as fishing goes, it's okay (to me) IF you eat the fish. this whole fishing-and-throwing-back-every-fish-you-catch thing is totally uncool, as it's totally cruel...

(and i totally know that i'm somewhat of a hypocrite b/c i eat meat, and though i try to eat cage-free and free-range and organic, it's expensive, and i'm not rich... nor do those terms always mean that you're getting un-tortured meat.); 9:20 AM
Carina said...: I'm uncomfortable with it, and so is my husband.

However, I don't mind if other people go hunting. Having seen deer starving, it's probably better if they are culled in a way that is as non-invasive as possible. (They have to be culled because WE removed all their natural checks, but that's another hot topic.)

My dad was one of the few that didn't go hunting where I grew up. I asked him once and he said he had shot a squirrel when he was a teen and that had been enough bloodshed for him. However, he is an outdoors man, and a fisherman, so we did learn about surviving and respecting the environment.

So, there won't be hunters in my house.; 9:38 AM
Laurel said...: I have no problem with it...although I have no interest in hunting or fishing myself.; 10:27 AM
Miriam Herm said...: I agree with everything you say. Living in California my whole life (not too many hunters here) and then going to Utah (hunters abound) was disturbing. And weird.
I would never have married a hunter. And I would never want my son to go hunting. And I will NEVER have a gun in my house. Ever.
Having said that, I've never really had a problem with fishing if you're camping and you fish and you eat the fish there. And then you'll probably go home with a third eye ball, because seriously? there's no unpolluted, clean water out there and if you're willing to eat those fish you deserve that third eye ball.; 10:30 AM
Anonymous said...: Call me the black sheep, I just can't find a problem with hunting.

After marrying my husband I told him that I wouldn't have married him if he wasn't into hunting. I come from a family of hunters and I just can't see a problem with it. My dad has been a bishop and is currently a Stake President and not one general authority or apostle that he has met has told him to give it up.

If you are going out there like a vicious hunter thirsty for blood, then there's a problem. Agree or disagree, hunting takes skill and is considered a sport.; 11:03 AM
brookegfunk said...: As usual I pretty much agree with steph but I do think that just beacause someone hunts doesnt make them a total blood thirsty maniac just like someone whos a vegan isnt inherently good.I say do what ever you do with respect for life in all its forms.; 11:09 AM
brookegfunk said...: Ps I should read my comments BEFORE I post-oops!; 11:10 AM
Jenn Kirk said...: My initial thought to this was, yeah, why not? Hunting has always seemed like a wholesome activity to me; men getting together, fathers and sons bonding, thoughtful dialogue amidst the backdrop of nature...sounds nice!

However, as it is with all tough questions, it always comes down to "Would the Savior do it?" I find it unlikely and uncharacteristic that He, who sorrows at the death of even a sparrow, would kill an animal for enjoyment. So, after pondering your question this morning, I conclude and believe wholeheartedly that hunting for sport is wrong.; 11:35 AM
Anonymous said...: If you don't like people who hunt, but you eat meat (beef,chicken, what have you) you are being a bit hypocritical. Cows used for beef are penned up their whole lives and walk around in their own filth until they are slaughtered. At least with hunting, the deer, elk, pheasants, etc. live in their natural habitat and have a chance at life. Just because you don't have to kill the cow yourself doesn't mean it's more humane. The cow still goes through pain, bleeds, and dies. (most often the slaughtering process includes being stunned with an electric prod so they can then be hung by their hind legs and have their throats slit)

(I don't agree with people who hunt just for sport.); 11:58 AM
Skyler said...: When I was 10 my dad got me a BB gun. I took it to my Grandpa's house and shot at cans sitting on a fence post. Then I saw it -- a blue bird in a tree that I felt needed to die. I pointed the barrel and shot. I was bawling before the bird even hit the ground. I'm still traumatized by the image of the bird falling, and I haven't "hunted" since. I feel the same was as Mrs. Dub and others who have posted. But I'm OK with fishing while you're camping if you eat the fish. I also agree with the hypocrisy arguments about eating store-bought meat. However, my big hypocrisy is that I don't mind killing insects. Not one bit. I'm not sure why, but I just don't feel that same remorse I had with the bird whenever I swat fly or spray an ant hill with pesticide. Any thoughts?; 12:12 PM
Anonymous said...: My husband (who grew up in Cali, not Utah) does go hunting and I have NO problem with it. He has only shot quail, dove, rabbits, and small things like that. He would LOVE to start hunting big game, but it gets expensive and you have to get drawn to do that anyway. But I have no problem with it. We have eaten everything that he has killed. He doesn't just "kill for fun" and waste the animal. He enjoys hunting the animals that we then eat. This might sound crazy to you all, but rather than have 1000 pounds of wheat in our food storage, we have thousands of rounds of ammo. You'll be getting mighty sick of wheat mush while we enjoy some fresh, tasty meat!

As far as guns go, he has 6 (I think) in our house. We have a gun safe. They are all stored securely. My children can't reach them and if they could, they aren't loaded. But if there were an intruder, it would take him a matter of seconds to be prepared. I don't think it is crazy to have guns. I think it is smart. But I'll save my pro-gun comments for another HTT.; 1:14 PM
Colleen said...: Hunting=blech

To my knowledge, I never dated a hunter. I honestly just can't see myself being attracted to the sort of person who finds bloodshed fun. And no guns in my house, ever.; 1:44 PM
Leslie said...: bird, your boyfriend being a hunter really would have been a deal-breaker? i think hunting is pretty lame myself, but it represents more of the culture/family in which a person is raised rather than the type of person they are. i don't think most hunters are blood-thirsty maniacs, but i also know that i could never shoot a peaceful, living animal for fun. it's just the way you look at it. it's part of my husband's family tradition, and although he doesn't really partake in it, i'm sure my boys will go a few times. there is lots of interesting information about the way hunters control the population of these animals, which would suffer & be out of control if they weren't hunted. like azucar said, our fault, but at least something is being done to help. also, so much of america is preserved land for this purpose, and the fewer master-planned communities and wal-marts the better, IMO.; 1:47 PM
Ilene said...: It's not part of my culture but I don't fault anyone else for doing it. I guess I am into that moderation thing- anyone too crazy into hunting can be a bit frightening. Of course all hunting should be legal; poaching is bad. Bambi is cute and so are rabbits but really, they aren't endangered species. Of course you should always eat what you hunt. I have a friend whose family makes their own sausage and all kinds of crazy things from what they hunt. More power to them. Just so long as they don't invite me for dinner or criticize my passionate desire to kill all things insect in my house without eating them later.; 1:54 PM
sara said...: I agree with the excellent points brought out by the pro-hunters here, or at least if not "pro" then those think it's at least okay. Wasting the animals would be wrong. If you use (eat) them then it's just fine, assuming you have a license and are doing it legally. Most/many types of animals were put on the earth for human consumption; that's in the Bible.

Additionally, target shooting is a sport of skill like any other, except that the skill of being able to hit a target with a bullet just might come in handy someday when your family is hungry (or in mortal danger); whereas accuracy in shooting a basketball or driving a golfball won't help with that.

That being said, I don't love hunting (glad my husband doesn't love it) because I personally can't stand dealing with dead animal carcasses myself, but there's nothing wrong with hunting as a general rule.; 1:57 PM
Eliza said...: The issue for me is that you can hunt and kill an animal in the same way you can hunt and kill a person. (Sorry to be kind of graphic in that word choice.) I have only shot a gun once and I really didn't like it. I don't think I'd ever be comfortable using a gun. It's odd, because my father used to hunt when he lived in Utah, and he has guns in a gun-safe in his house. Then again, he is also a very liberal, peace-loving, war-hating person. So maybe that's where I got my discomfort with guns.

In that sense, fishing and hunting are really not similar. Neither is squishing a bug. You don't really do either of those things to hurt another person, so it's not so close to that other act.

But if you're talking about hurting animals, then I guess there's no difference.

One solution to the meat dilemma is to look for labels that indicate meat was raised and killed humanely. But that's not actually a solution, since labels can be deceiving (plus, expensive...) Maybe hunting really is the best way to get meat if you're worried about treatment of animals. But if I were to do that, I'd have to leave the shooting to my husband.; 2:12 PM
Laurie said...: Call me Annie Oakley, but I personally LOVE shooting. Ever time I've been target shooting I totally love the thrill and rush of it. And I'm not too shabby of a shooter.

As to hunting--I see nothing wrong with it, and I agree it's an invaluable survival skill that most of society is grossly lacking in (have you seen "The Alaskan Experiment?"). As to personally GOING hunting, I'd be willing to give it a try someday. But it is cold, and you need the gear, and I've been pregnant or breastfeeding for what feels like forever; so I guess unless we really needed the meat, I'd probably choose the warm RV.

As to guns and animal cruelty, there's really enough to discuss to warrant individual HTTs. But I will say this much (as someone who grew up rural and witnessed calves, sheep, and chickens butchered in my backyard): Butchering any animal is messy business, but it's necessary in order to "harvest" the meat. And most of the "feces" from livestock are what's called manure--an important fertilizer for vegetables.; 3:32 PM
Miriam Herm said...: dating a hunter would not have been an option. i also refused to date a guy because he wanted to be in the armed forces (nothing against the armed forces, i just don't want to be one of their wives).; 4:17 PM
ANN said...: I am from Central Illinois, which is definitely deer-huntin' country. While I could never pull the trigger, almost every family I knew growing up hunted. I am certainly not comfortable with guys that go to game farms just for "the thrill of the kill." However, there are a few things about hunting that I can appreciate:

1. Deer overpopulation is a real problem where I am from. There is not enough food to sustain the number of deer that would live naturally. And, while I understand this too can be attributed to population sprawl, it's a fairly humane way to take care of it (and keep deer from smashing into cars and hurting people).

3. Most hunters truly respect their kill. They waste little (if any) of the animal. They do not shoot does and fawns.

2. Farmers are a tight-lipped, unemotional bunch. So for many of my friends, hunting was the most important time they spent with their fathers growing up.

Of course... with all of that said, you'd never catch me with a riffle in arm.; 4:18 PM
Emma said...: Nothing new in my comment here. I don't have a problem with those that hunt legally, and use what they hunt. I personally don't want to hunt. We don't own a gun, and don't plan to, but I don't think it's wrong as long as you are safe with it.
My husband enjoys fishing, I don't enjoy it. He cleans and guts his own fish. But I love to eat it!; 4:47 PM
Layton Mom said...: I grew up hunting with my father and grandfather. I am not currently an active hunter but am not opposed to it either. We always hunted to provide meat for the winter. Hunting for the thrill of hunting was never the purpose. Yes, you can get a good beef steak from the store but a good venison steak can't be beat!; 4:55 PM
Amanda said...: As a former vegetarian of 10 years (going on a mission broke me of that real quick!) I was VERY opposed to hunting, thinking anyone who killed for sport was sick. I had also read some quotes from GA's about hunting and came to the conclusion that it was 'wrong.' I am now married to a guy who hunts (notice that he is not a hunter but a guy who hunts) and have come to view hunting in a whole new light. I agree with the comment that it is a skill that most people don't have-how to cut the animal and preserve the meat etc. I personally don't have the stomach to kill an animal but I enjoy the meat once it's been cut. I'm definitely not a fan of big animal heads as decorations but that is separate from hunting. There are so many variations in people who hunt that it is hard to categorize all hunters into one group, which I think happens often.; 6:24 PM
Anonymous said...: Is there a pettern here? Are last week's pet haters waving the anti-gun banner this week? Animals were put on the earth for a reason. Hooved animals for food and dogs for companionship.
End of story.; 7:49 PM
Leisha Mareth said...: I have no idea.

I've dated hunters, I have brothers who hunt and I know cool people who enjoy it. My husband collects cool guns, but doesn't hunt, is that scarier? Ha!

I don't like hunting, in general. Sometimes I think it can be a power-trip for some men (Me Tarzan - You Jane - I Hunt - You Gather)

However, if there is a natural disaster or we somehow need to fend for ourselves I'm buddying up first thing with a Hunter. My belly likes food and I don't know a lung from a gizzard from a flank steak.

I guess my vote would be "A necessary evil (per Azucar's post about culling) that borders on gross, but I'm glad that we have them, but I don't want my husband doing it..."

Is that a conflicted and weird enough answer for you?

P.S. I like anonymous' comment, lol.; 7:59 PM
Unknown said...: My dad used to be a hunting guide. He didn't hunt for the thrill of the kill. He hunted mainly for the fun and skill of tracking the animal. Even when he came home with no meat he felt like he had done what he had gone to do. That being said, whenever he did kill an animal we ate most of it. If you know how to cook it properly game meat is delicious.

My husband does not hunt. Though he would like to try it. There is something to be said about using a gun skillfully as well and knowing how to keep it safe. And hunting provides a good practice for that skill. I know it's off topic, but the 2nd amendment is there for a reason. I don't trust my government as far as I could throw it. I would LOVE to have a gun in my home. In fact I'm thinking about getting a conceled weapons permit. I feel it makes us all safer. I have never heard of someone with a license and/or permit shooting people down just for the sake of it. Those cold blooded killers come by their guns illegally.

Stepping of soap box now.; 9:35 PM
The Rookie said...: I, personally, am uncomfortable with it. I allow others their right to hunt. I don't even think this to be a sign of a potential tendency for deviant behavior. But I would not feel comfortable were my future husband (if there is such a person) out on the kill during the month of October.

Oh, and frankly, I'm a wee bit creeped out by avid hunters that are into taxidermy trophies. A friend's father-in-law has an annexed "Game Room" (I'm guessing double entendre intended?). I prefer to call it The Room of Death.; 9:52 PM
melissa said...: i have an hunter-uncle who used to call me a sissified city girl because i cringed at the idea of hunting, wouldn't touch a gun, and cried when he tried to get me to participate in target practice....he is now in the bishop ric so if you could tell me where to find those quotes about hunting being wrong that would be fabulous ;)

and obviously im TOTALLY against hunting; 10:27 PM
P Daddy said...: I think anyone who beats a bear in a cage fight deserves a hunting license. Seems a whole lot fairer than guns and scopes and specialized ammo versus fundamentally defenseless, and generally non-threatening animals and birds. Actually, I don't have problem with hunting per se, just over the top hunters. Same with guns and gun lovers. Or animals and animal lovers. Or the environment and rabid environmentalists. I just don't like crazies and extremists on either end of the spectrum. But back to that cage fight, despite my distaste for violence, I'd pay to watch PETA versus the NRA in the cage. Might give me new respect (or any respect) for the IFC and mixed martial arts. But, and I recognize the irony, I do enjoy fishing, though I only go a couple times a year, if that. It's more being on the water than any great urge to catch something--which is good given my success rate. I've cleaned and eaten my catch a few time, but mostly throw every thing back. Hooked myself a few time, but much less lethal than, say, hunting with Dick Cheney.; 11:09 PM
brookegfunk said...: PDaddy have I told you lately how much I love you? Well I do and I always LOVE to hear yer thoughts and opinions.Thanks for sharing.; 11:20 PM
the dragonfly said...: My husband likes to hunt. I told him I didn't mind as long as he ate what he killed. He gave me the "are you crazy?" look and told me he hunts because he likes the meat, so of course he was going to eat what he killed! And so...I don't mind. I like to eat meat too, and while I don't think I'd have the stomach to kill/butcher and animal myself, I know someone has to do it.; 9:14 AM
Elisa said...: My husband collects guns. We have lots, but our idea of hunting is going to the Kroger and getting a good deal on meat. Thats hunting right there!; 9:42 AM
P Daddy said...: Melissa--It was President Spencer W. Kimball in Priesthood Session of General Conference in October 1978, before Mrs. Dub, you, and most of the readers here were born. He cited Joseph Smith, Joseph F. Smith and others on needless killing of animals (particularly birds) and bloodsport hunting. The talk can be found at Kimball Talk.; 9:57 AM
Carolyn said...: I have a few questions to pose--hopefully they will get answered by someone who is not as fond of hunting-I know this post is a day late. Anyway, first off, which articles were you talking about where it is "suggested" that hunting is bad? The only one I can think of is where a general authority talked about a hunting and fishing trip with his son to Alaska and how it was a bonding moment. There's also a Seminary video where a boy goes with his uncle fly fishing and they talk about the conversion of Alma. Second, do you only think hunting is bad NOW, or was it acceptable in the days of yore when it really WAS the only way to obtain food for many families? Personally, I'm not a hunter myself, but my father in law goes a lot. He uses ALL the meat and it is something that has created great memories with his boys--it isn't just the hunt that is fun, although that is a fun part, but also the camping and being out in nature. I understand why some people think it might be cruel, but I myself think that unless you don't eat meat yourself, you can't tell a hunter who actually uses all the meat that what he is doing is wrong.; 10:12 AM
Carolyn said...: Blast! Sorry about my first question that was obviously answered--I should have read all the comments first!; 10:20 AM
Alifinale said...: Ok, I am a little late but wanted to put my 2 cents in. My hubbie and I laugh about hunting because seriously...what kind of a sport is it when you have a rifle and they have nothing but their feet to get away. Just doesn't seem fair and it pretty stupid. I think bow hunting and fishing make for better sport and I can understand how it can be an enjoyable past time for some. But just going out to shoot animals seems pretty stupid to me.; 2:51 PM
Bartimaeus said...: I think hunting is ok when its for food and not simply to knock off an animal. I think guns are ok. I don't think lots of hunting and guns are ok. Don't personally see a need for someone to own an automatic weapon.

I think it is awesome that you provoke out thoughts and force us to evaluate our stances on these HTT's.

I'm also glad you married my bro.; 10:10 PM
Super B said...: I know that I am late on this HT but I did want to share my thoughts. Or some of them at least. I tend to agree with the sentiments of Stacia, laurie, Ann and the Illinois girl.

My dad's whole family hunts and fishes. My mom's family, not so much and I seem to remember there being some discord about the topic.

However, I think hunting is fine. My dad is a lover of nature and creatures and hunting creatures too. I think hunting can be done in respectful and appropriate ways. In my parents house we all gather round with large knives to cut up the fruits of the hunting labors...and package it up and live on the meat for a while. (I will argue that a moose roast will BEAT any other form of meat roast on the planet, hands down.)
Hunting is hard work too! I have never gone out personally, but you're talking about remote environments and long hikes and lots of physical labor to hunt down, kill, clean and pack out an animal. It is so much more than just pointing and shooting a gun. It is also a time to be one with nature and with family and always provides for good stories.
There is something to be said of the hunter/gatherer type of person. My dad is one of them and he has guns in the house (in a safe) and we go shooting as a family and we do have animal heads and hides on our walls (in a tasteful way, not all "lodgy") and I guess we are just "those" kind of people.
So, those are some of my thoughts.; 9:24 PM
RoeH said...: Against it totally. Could never be married to a man that enjoys sizing up a deer with a scope and blasting it's head off. It's disgusting and immoral. People who do that have no compassion.; 8:21 PM
Katherine Ronachert said...: i found your blog through mrs. r; it's very entertaining and since my source of enlightening adult communication is limited to a 4 & 2 year old... i peruse blogs.
i laughed at quite a few of the comments, mostly because i was one of them.
never would i date, marry or fall in love with a hunter. guns in the house was a huge no for very personal reasons.
only now, i've married a complete barbarian who comes from a stalk of barbarians. in their defense, they do eat the meat. i say "they" because it just weirds me out. city meets country. but when it comes down to it, he's a good man and more importantly a good father and husband.
and just as an interesting side note, he hasn't been able to shoot anything but targets since marrying me! :); 9:18 PM
Kate said...: Mostly I'm playing devil's advocate, but I think hunting may be the organics of the meat world. If you want to eat meat it makes sense that you'd be at least willing to do the raising and killing or hunting and killing yourself. I think we Americans as a whole are pretty out of touch with our consumption. Gardening and hunting could be ways that we get back in touch with what it means for a lot of people to live in this world and a way to practice self-sufficiency. It's also a good way to manage certain animal populations.

However, I eat store bought meat, I don't have a garden, I'm not picky about eating organic food, and I don't think I could ever shoot an animal let alone skin it or cook it or eat it. But these are good things to think about.

(By the way, you don't know me, I'm just a regular blog stalker.); 11:44 AM