5.06.2008

HTT - MMR Edition

Yesterday, Miss Dub had two immunizations to mark her 18-month-old-ness. Yes, we do that in our house. I'm aware that some people believe immunizations can cause autism. And while my heart goes out to families with autistic children, I just don't think there's a link.

I've read the research - and nearly all of it shows that immunizations have no bearing on a child developing autism. Most of it suggests that autism is a genetic disorder. So the only correlation between shots and autism appears to be that children receive them at the same age autism is typically diagnosed ... no matter what Jenny McCarthy says.

My first pediatrician, who prescribed to an organic lifestyle, told me she refused to treat children whose parents refused vaccinations for them. Most times, she told me, they would present her with faulty Internet research or personal testimonials. "Do you mean to tell me your hour-long Internet search is more accurate than my 10 years of rigorous schooling and 10 years of medical practice?" she would ask them. Sadly, most of them said yes.

And a good friend, who is studying to be a neuropsychologist, recently shared with me research revealing children who supposedly "changed over night" after immunizations were actually displaying autism spectrum behaviors since birth; their parents just ignored them or didn't recognize the signs.

I do think today's children are often over-diagnosed and over-medicated, but I also think there's a reason our child mortality rate is lower since vaccinations were implemented. So even though it can cause Miss Dub to wail something awful, I'm happy to spare her mumps, measles and rubella, whatever the heck that even is.

But what about you?

Do you get your children immunized?

And if not, why?

Shoot.

59 comments:

brookegfunk said...

People who dont immunize are counting on others to continue to immunize so that their kids dont get polio or some other illness. I dont think immunizations are a perfect science ( what is?) however, it is easy to see that immunizations have erradicated several deadly childhood diseases.

PS While I am not a bonafide Jenny Mcarthy fan I can safely say that her new hair cut choices make her look a whole lot less trampified . I guess the love of Ace Ventura Pet detective will do that for ya'.

LCM said...

I do believe that vaccinations are for the better good of everyone. My girls are thoroughly vaccinated, except for Fiona, who had to miss the kindergarten boosters until next year. I never really thought about how thoughtless people can be until I realized that all of the people who don't vaccinate are putting her at risk. Chicken pox could kill her right now, can you imagine what Measles could do?

Alifinale said...

I have watched enough House to know that immunization is better. I don't want some doctor to later say that I wrote my child a death sentence because I didn't immunize.

OK, really, I just think it is funny on House - but I do immunize and I agree whole heartedly with all that you had to say about it.

Carina said...

I'm with you and for the exact same reasons.

Katrina said...

So this is something I've been thinking about lately, as I'm pregnant with a son and the autism rate in boys is much higher. I definitely think we should immunize, but some of the criticism I've heard from parents of children with autism is that the schedule is too intense--that kids are getting too many shots as once. Any thoughts on that aspect of it? I'm considering a different, more space out immunization schedule with my baby.

Leslie said...

this is definitely a hot topic and one i've thought a lot about. since i have a scientific husband, he has always assured me that all the studies have proven that thimerosal is not linked to autism in young children. even through the jenny mccarthy fiasco. thimerosal was removed from just about every vaccine back in 1999, so unless the children had their shots before then, the claims really can't hold water. but even so, i was nervous to get my baby's 18 month shots. he's a boy, autism is more common in boys, etc., and i just had paranoid thoughts.

but i'd never choose not to immunize my kids. for the reasons LCM stated (the protection of other immune compromised children), and just general good sense. i think people who don't immunize are walking the crazy line.

BUT i can totally understand why mothers of children with autism are quick to jump on the vaccine bandwagon. put yourself in their place. if you child had a debilitating disorder which had no cure and changed your and their life forever, wouldn't you want to blame something? i think i would. it's a tough call. i feel for those moms and their struggles. also, i think more and more of them advocate spreading out the number of vaccines given at one visit, or postponing them to a later age, rather than foregoing them altogether.

Queen Elizabeth said...

IMMUNIZE!!! I have a brother who, at 7 months, came down with spinal meningitis. Almost died. Lost hearing and had learning problems. Was just accepted to nursing school (BTW). And NOW, children get a meningitis vaccine. That is a testament to me for traditional medicine there ever was one.

I think we all want to blame our children's not-perfect behavior on SOMEthing (I know I do). "My kid's a terror because she's TEETHING!" and so it's easy to find the nearest "thing" to go to --- and immunizations are the thing-o-the-moment.

Jenn Kirk said...

From my understanding, it is a possiblity that the mercury in vaccines can trigger autism in a child that was already genetically predisposed. It's pretty much a moot point now, with most mercury removed from vaccines (with the exception of some brands of the flu shot).

My first child is fully vaccinated. With my second, I was a little more educated in the area of immunizations, so we now follow an alternate schedule which will result (eventually) in full-vaccination, with the exception of the Hep B shot (really--a vaccine for STDs?? for a baby?!) There are many benefits to spacing out vaccines for your child. The Vaccine Book by Dr. Bob Sears is an awesome resource for this.

And as for parents thinking their personal research is more informed than their doctors school learning, I personally think it is true in some instances. So many doctors subscribe to the "old-school" and are resistant to the results of recent studies. Don't even get me started on obstetrics in this country! But either way, the obvious solution is to find a doctor more in line with your philosophy.

Wow, I've written an essay here. Anyways, this is the first time I've commented on your blog, and want you know that I find you incredibly witty and smart and clean (so hard to find this combo on the blogosphere!), and that I really enjoy reading what you have to say.

Anonymous said...

I don't have a problem with immunizations. I actually do agree that they work and are great. However, I don't think there is a need to rush out and fill our kids with every vaccination out there within the first two years of their lives.

My 18 month old just got his MMR vaccination and 7 days later became very ill and started having seizures (which apparently are a rare side effect that may or may not affect him for the rest of his life).

In the future, I am going to wait on immunizations. Is there really a need to give these tiny babies all these vaccines immediately?

Or maybe like brookegfunk said, I will encourage others to immunize, so we won't catch any life-threatening diseases... But I'm not doing that to my kids anymore.

sara said...

Yes yes yes to shots. Mrs. Dub you are right on.

Mique (as in Mickey) said...

Hi,
Um I'm usually a lurker (and faithful fan) but had to open my big mouth here. At the risk of sounding like "one of them"- I don't care..I just have to do it:
I am a mother with a child with autism. I have 3 kids- oldest has it. Other two we chose not to immunize (one girl, one boy)- they are fine. I could do a long lengthy post as to why we chose not to immunize. And how I don't think all immunizations are bad. But I'd just like to say here that just like you- having struggled with your recent trials- people REALLY don't know how it feels until they have lived in your shoes. I don't know what it's like to have to give birth to a baby and say a sad goodbye (though I did have a miscarriage of twins before my first was born and later diagnosed with autism). SO I must say the way this post was put stings a little (or a lot). I normally enjoy your sarcasm but today, not so much. Take a walk in my worn out shoes and you would understand.
1 in 150 kids. That's staggering. I don't care what the rest of the world says. There is something going on. I don't think it's only vaccines, but I think there is NO way that you can say there isn't some connection. And just want to let you know- I did not spend 1 hour on the internet getting my info. I in fact talked to my pediatrician before the MMR, who reassured me and told me she would immunize her child....only later to have my child be diagnosed after the MMR. I am glad I asked about it because I would never be able to live with myself if I hadn't at least followed my instincts. I just wish I would've carried it through. AND I have had horrendous experiences with doctors since. The fact is- pediatricians are expected to deal with all kinds of sicknesses, disorders, etc. They can't be all be scholars in every disorder. Don't you think a mom who's whole life changed drastically over night would read EVERYTHING she could get her hands on relating to this crazy disorder? I have gone to doctors who thought I was just a young, dumb mother. I hate to say it but I knew 1 million times more about autism then they did (not just immunizations mind you). It has turned my life upside down, inside out, and everything else.
Next time you get sick of hearing about autism and the vaccine debate, think to yourself that there is a child behind all the talk and a family and a mother fighting harder than she's EVER EVER EVER expected to fight. Please don't just think she's "one of them."
(hope you don't delete my comment because you think it's mean- that is not my intent at all. I just wanted to let you know that there is another side to the story and maybe make you think a little).....

whitney said...

i don't the get the mentality of "I will encourage others to immunize, so we won't catch any life-threatening diseases..." every child has a chance of having side effects to immunizations (tiny though that chance may be)... why should other people have to be responsible for someone deciding that they don't want to immunize their child, but that everyone else should get them so that their child is protected?

that being said, i think that immunizations are good and necessary and i do not believe that they cause autism. as other people have commented before me, i think that we as parents often want to blame something or someone when something is not right with our children... it's normal and human. but it's not really the right thing to do and it never makes us feel better (not really anyway)... especially when we try to sue the government to get some money out of it. :)

Mrs. Dub said...

Mique,

I'm not offended at all by your comment and am sorry that my post might have hurt you. I was hoping someone with a personal experience could contribute to this discussion. I don't have personal experience to rely on; all I have is research and it appears scientifically sound to me.

I'm sorry for all you have been through and will go through. I hope there is more research done to help prevent, diagnose and cure autism. But I will probably still get immunizations for my children. I'm just wary of throwing out something good altogether because of an unproven risk of something bad happening.

I do think lots of doctors can be jerks and that many mothers inform themselves quite competently, but lots of moms are making rash decisions about this and everyone's children are at risk.

I am curious to know if your child exhibited any warning signs before vaccination or if there was a sudden onset in your opinion. Do you think that the MMR shot exacerbated an already existing condition or do you think it caused it? Just curious.

Thanks again for sharing, and best of luck!

p.s. I swear I wasn't being sarcastic at all in this post, except for the Jenny McCarthy comment. And that's just because I never liked "Singled Out."

Colleen said...

I think I've got a somewhat unique view on this issue. My parents chose not to immunize me or any of my five siblings and are very opinionated on the subject. When I was pregnant with my little boy, it was obviously something I had to think long and hard about. I spent hours on the internet researching the pros and cons of immunizing my children.

The problem with any amount of research on the topic is that people on both sides of the issue are very emotionally invested in it. It is very difficult to get an objective view anywhere.

In the end, I decided to immunize. I think it is a personal decision that should be approached in an educated and prayerful manner. And we absolutely shouldn't judge those who choose differently than we do.

Amber (EyesofAmber) said...

I can't speak to the autism aspect, although I admit it is a fear of mine. So many medical studies are sponsored by drug companies that it's hard to know just how accurate that data is. I can however speak to vaccine reaction.
Because I have done so much research, I've always been slightly uncomfortable vaccinating, but not enough so to actually refuse vaccination. From the very beginning my husband has given each of our boys a father's blessing the night before they receive any shots. With our oldest, they told me at his nine month appointment that he was due for a Prevnar, which apparently he should have had earlier but they'd been out of it. When I asked the nurse about it, she said "it's just a good one to have," not really convincing on a vaccine I'd never heard of before. I was so uneasy and felt like there was a lack of good reason to administer this particular vaccine, based on what she'd just said to me. I ignored my gut feelings, what I'd later realize was the spirit telling me what to do, and he got the shot. That night he was a wailing, screaming child with a raging fever. I called the pediatrician who said that such a high fever was rare with this vaccine and he suggested not giving it to him again or to any future children.
Vaccines are like any other medicine, they do not affect everyone in the same way. Although I believe they are a good thing overall, I'm also not sure that a tiny baby's young immune system is prepared for the onslaught of vaccines they receive in their first two years of life. I feel like there is a push from the medical community to give immunizations earlier and earlier. There are new vaccines coming out all the time, and I'm just not sure that there is enough research done into these vaccines before we start pumping them into our children. When my oldest two were born, they received Hep B at their first set of shots. With my third, they wanted to administer it at birth. I refused it because I'd never heard of this before and I didn't feel comfortable. After further research, I feel like I made the right decision.
As I said earlier, the MMR really scares me, but I go ahead with it because of the fear of mumps. Since I have all boys, including the one on the way, I cannot in good conscince allow them to possibly catch a disease that could leave them sterile, then have them ask me as adults why I didn't give them the shot that could have prevented it.
It also should be noted that thimerasol removal in some vaccines is not mandatory, merely recommended. You have to ask your doctor about the brand that they use to find out if your child is receiving an injection that contains it. With some of the newer vaccines, such as Hep A, they really don't know how long the immunity from the shot lasts. This particular shot can be given no closer than six months from the last dose. I actually took my son for an appointment and they said that it was one day too early for the booster. My question, if one day makes so much difference, how do we know that six months exactly is enough? What if February is one of those six months and that isn't taken into account when figuring the date of the booster? I just feel like in the case of some of these new vaccines, we're getting ahead of ourselves. Just because there is a vaccine for it doesn't mean that my child should receive it.
I'm not talking about diseases that are life-threatening or life-altering in many cases, such as meningitis, polio, measles, mumps, etc. I'm talking about things like Hep A, where the majority of people who suffer complications or die from it are over the age of 49! I believe that we are taking vaccines that only children in high-risk groups need and giving them to every child. I'm just not sure that's a good idea.
I know I'm writing a book here, but this is just one of those things I'm passionate about and I suppose that is the point of HTT. I also don't agree with the "let everyone else vaccinate to protect us." I don't think anyone else should take a risk with their child in order to protect mine. That completely devalues the lives of every child but your own, and that's just an incredibly distorted take on life.
As for me knowing more than my doctor, I think in some cases I do. Not because I'm more educated, but because I spend so much time on issues that relate to my children specifically, while he cares for hundreds of children. Sometimes doctors are very married to a certain way of thinking and aren't open to even discussing other options. I think that's where we fall into the danger zone, when doctors, or we as a society, stop believing that there is anything else out there for us to learn or any new information available worth considering.
Okay, climbing down off my soap box now! Thanks Mrs Dub for a lively HTT.

Morgan said...

i immunize my children (infact, i did it just yesterday as well!). i think that they are very helpful as well as important. it just seems very risky to me to not do it.

i do not have a child with autism, and i am not an expert at all, but my personal belief is that autism is most likely, first and foremost, genetic. whether or not it can be brought on quicker or exacerbated by outside factors, i don't really know.

but one of my best friends has a child who is pretty severely autistic, and it is a constant struggle. she says that there was a VERY distinct difference, from her first child to her second (who is not autistic, both immunized). she noticed the difference from birth, but kept pushing the thoughts and feelings back as her husband kept saying, he's fine, you're just being paranoid. but sure enough, i think he was about 3 when finally diagnosed.

i'm sure all cases are different, but it seems VERY unlikely to me that immunizations would be the sole cause of autism, if even a factor at all. i think that there are enough cases where kids exhibited autistic behavior before being immunized to justify that line of thinking. i too think that it is often just easier to be able to blame something else.

Gina said...

I'm an immunizer! After my baby had RSV, I wish there was a vaccine for that too. I'm so not into sick babies.

Nash said...

I sit on the fence with this one. I am not a "take your child to every scheduled check up" kind of mom. I don't think I overreact. However, I have a 23 month old boy. I have debated whether or not to get the MMR, even though through much research my husband and I do believe their is no supposed "link". But, I was not about to do it until he's a little older. I think it was Jenn who talked about being possibly predisposed. Even though I don't think there is a link, it still isn't a risk I am willing to take. I don't immunize my kids before 6 months and I do not stick to the Rigorous schedule of 20 plus vaccines in 2 years. They do that out of convenience. And, in med school they do NOT go over immunizations that IN DEPTH, as far as I understand. It's hard to find unbiased research. I read up on the Amish people because of their lifestyle. It was believed that they didn't immunize, but I found that somewhere around 80% or more are immunized. I found that fascinating.Also, the foods our kids eat today play a big role, it's hard as parents to be that great example at eating strictly RAW foods. Sorry that was all over the place. It's hard to know what to do. One last thing....if you don't immunize then you best make sure your kid eats straight out of the garden!

Joey and Megan said...

I immunize because I feel it's the best thing for my children. I don't think I would be able to live with myself as a mother if one of them died from something so easily preventable, and I think that the risks of the diseases we immunize for are greater than the risks of the side effects of the immunizations themselves.

However, I do think my own doctor's office should do a better job discussing the risks with parents rather than dictating the immunization schedule.

And I'm grateful every day for my healthy kids, that's for sure.

MB said...

AMEN.

Unknown said...

I immunize. A case of measles just broke out at a hospital in my town last month, and so MMR vaccination sites were set up all over town and all of a sudden over 1200 (so far) "unbelievers" in vaccinations have gotten the shot.

Its hard to see the reason for it until it hits home, I guess.

Anonymous said...

Calm down everyone. I was only kidding about letting everyone else vaccinate their kids so I won't have to. Obviously, I don't wish autism or any other type of side effects on anyone else's kids...

Sarah Garner said...

Wow, what a hot topic! I do not know what it is like to have a child with autism, although I worked with autisic adults for 3 years in a group home and I know what a challenge it is. I have also seen the exhausted and heartbroken parents that have endured a lifetime of working so hard to love their child and getting nothing in return. I do, however, know how it feels to lose a child... it is heart wrenching. That being said, I guess everyone has their own life experiences to base their decisions on, and truthfully that is what free agency is about. I will always vaccinate because based on my previous experiences I would rather take the risk of possibly exposing my child to autism than to death. For me I'd rather have them here. But I can see how someone else would argue that at least my daughter is in a better place rather than trapped in a body unable to communicate. There are enough people that vaccinate at this time that those who chose not to probably don't have to worry that their child will contract small pox. However, the deadly diseases we vaccinate for WILL KILL, and at epidemic pace. My worry is that if the majority of people stop vaccinating at least for the fatal diseases it won't be safe anymore and who's to say that once it comes back it won't mutate and become immune to the vaccine. Then no one will be safe.

Frances said...

We do vaccinate - although a bit delayed. Our insurance does not cover but 50% of her shots so we go to a local EMS office when they offer them. She is 18 months old and has up to her 12 month shots - we are going in the middle of this month to get her 18 month shots.

She has not had any side effects from them so I don't hesitate.

Frances said...

I meant to say 15 month shots. I will continue this delayed vaccination schedule when I have another child. I think there are just too many shots given at one time. It should be spaced out more. I've watched my little girl get 5 shots at one time - that is just ridiculous.

As far as the tie to autism I don't know a lot, but I do think it is possible that something in the vaccines trigger a already present genetic issue that would have otherwise been dormant.

Just my two cents. (again!)

Amber (EyesofAmber) said...

Thinking about this some more, I recalled reading about one of the vaccines that children should be vaccinated to prevent spreading the illness to adults. What??? So we pump it into our children to protect adults, why not vaccinate the adults!

Melanie M. McKinnon said...

oh wow. i had to take several big, long, deep breaths before screaming after I read Mique's comment. still taking deep breaths and trying not to scream.

to mique, i do not want to discount your experience with autism and i have a few nephew's with it myself. and i agree with you that pediatricians are not scholars in every disorder. i know you are dealing with a lot and clearly have a set opinion and no matter how logical i sound, you will not change it.

my dad is a family doctor and i get my info from him. i have plenty of people to back me up for his knowledge.

i had a son die last year from SIDS at 5 weeks. i joined an online support group and found that many women blamed vaccinations for their child's death. but every story was as inconsistent as the next. my son had not yet had his vaccinations. some children died the next day. some died weeks later. no reaserach has even been consistent with their claims but there was no changing their opinions.

but all people seem to need someone or something to blame if they can't find a specific answer to a child's disability or death.

the fact is, if you don't immunize your children and they do contract polio or whooping cough, your life will be much more miserable in a different way that could have been prevented after years of dedicated scientists trying to keep our children alive. not to mention the fact that your child would pass the disease to a younger unimmunized child, which would more than likely result in something worse than autism.

because you aren't immunizing your children, you are just relying on the immunizations of other children. what happens when all women stop immunizing their children?

again, i understand having an autistic child can be hard and i've seen it first hand. but an autistic child is autistic because they were genetically designed to be that way.

and if you are blaming vaccinations, why not blame formula? or breast milk? or the plastic that stores the milk? to me, it seems just as ridiculous.

to everyone else: please immunize your children!

to mrs. dub: sorry for getting so worked up.

Nikkala said...

In the last month there was an outbreak of rubella in our ward. Since kids don't get the vaccination until they are 1, kids under 1 can still get it.

The reason for the vaccine isn't necessarily for people that get rubella, but for pregnant mom's less than 20 weeks along who are exposed and have not been vaccinated. The child may be born with congenital rubella syndrome, which entails a range of serious incurable diseases. Spontaneous abortion occurs in 20% of the cases.

I'm 19 weeks along (17 weeks at the time of the outbreak). I'm just glad I've been immunized!

Mique (as in Mickey) said...

Hi Mrs. Dub,
Thanks for responding to my comment. And glad you didn't take it the wrong way (maybe it was all the other sarcastic comments that I got mixed up with)...just to answer your q's- I absolutely think that our family could have a predisposition to autism and that the vaccine just pushed him over the edge (again, I don't think all vaccines are bad)....so that's why we chose not to vaccinate our other two kids. We knew we already had a chance and we weren't willing to walk down that path again. Luckily for us, our other two are indeed fine. Which makes me grateful that I chose not to vaccinate them.
I'm having a hard time holding in my screams at Melmk. Here's my problem- you get your info from your dad who I assume became a doctor when vaccines were being done less often and not straight out of the womb. When I was little we had FAR less vaccines and very spread apart. Now they are done way too close, too many all at once and way too young to be healthy. There is a vaccine for everything. And the research hasn't caught up with the rate at which they are being given. Plain and simple- it's dangerous. I have plenty of friends that are pediatricians (who I have talked to at length about this subject) as well as researchers trying to pinpoint the cause. I am NOT trying to find one thing and just attack it and blame for my child's condition. I do for sure think it contributes. To say otherwise is just ignorant. I also think other things contribute- possibly environmental causes, some genetics...I don't think it's just ONE thing. I think you misunderstood me.
It seems to me like too many commenters are basically saying, "Poor people with kids with autism. But get over it. They were born that way and you just need to deal." UM- NO...something needs to change. At this point in my life, I am focusing more on helping my kid have the best life possible but when things calm down a bit I want to help make a change and find a cause any way I can. If I gave off the impression that I am sitting back blaming the medical community and doing nothing to help my child, I'm sorry about that. That's absolutely not the case- I spend every second in therapy with my son, dealing with school agencies, government stuff, etc, etc (the list goes FOREVER long)...I am working hard here. Not just sitting here saying "poor me, my life stinks and I blame a shot." No, no, no, no.
I adore my son. He has taught me more in 8 years of life than all of my 22 years combined prior to his birth. He's beautiful, smart and amazing. I just wish this darn autism cloud wasn't hanging above his head. It has made a long hard path for me, for him and our entire family.
Like I stated before, until you walk in my shoes I don't think you can judge me for chosing not to immunize. And I am not only relying on other people to immunize their children.
So to rebuttle Melmck, find out the facts, spread the vaccines apart, ask all that you can and go with your instincts.
p.s. I think it's going to be really intersting in about 10- 15 years when this whole subject comes to the forefront when there are millions of adults with autism and it affects all our hospitals, prisons, etc...just throwing it out there. It won't always only be little kids dealing with autism. It will become a really big issue in the future......so I think talking about it- whether it be in relation to vaccines or environmental causes, etc- is super important. It will majorly affect us all. Not just people like me that deal with it so closely every second of the day.

Emma said...

I have immunized my kids, and will continue to. As mentioned some people believe there are enough people in the US who are vaccinated, and that they don't need to worry about it. It simply doesn't add up. A family (5 of them)in a city nearby got measles last week. This country is made up of immigrants, and not all of them have been immunized either.
Some people have a mistrust of the government, and since they recommend immunizations those people think they shouldn't.
My DH is a pediatrician (in training) and has actually heard this excuse. He has done his research on the subject. He gets his sources from all over the place. There is no proven link between autism and vaccines. I don't understand why parents would their child at risk. There are many thoughts running through my head, but a lot of them have been said already.

the dragonfly said...

My son has had all his vaccinations (so far; he's 11 months old today) and will continue to get them. My husband and I tried for three years to get pregnant, including many doctor visits, etc, and if he got a life-threatening disease because I didn't give him a shot...I don't think I could live with myself. Also I have a fairly weak immune system (I just got over the flu in May...sheesh!) and if he's got my immune system he needs all the help he can get! :)

sara said...

To Mique: a very intelligent rebuttal. I don't agree with your stance but I do appreciate hearing (reading) a very thorough and well-thought-out response. I wonder if autism used to be misdiagnosed and that's why there seems to be such a spike in cases, or if there truly are so many more cases than there used to be. I know a family where 3 out of their 4 kids have been diagnosed with autism (the 4th is an infant), leading me to believe that in their case it is a genetic issue. But every situation is different of course. I appreciate your perspective on the issue!

Super B said...

I believe in being educated. I also believe that it is hard to find unbiased information about vaccines.

I don't base my decisions to immunize or not on the autism info.

I do feel that vaccines are administered too many too quickly. Together with my pediatrician who is more organic we went over the HUGE list of vaccines and she told me her thoughts and feelings about each of them. We took into consideration her knowledge as someone we trust and also thought about which ones we felt were necessary. I don't think that babies should be given so many vaccines in such a short time. I also feel that some of them are not necessary. Having said that, we only administered some vaccines on the "normal" schedule, others we will wait til' she is older and yet others we won't do at all.

However, just as with so many other Hot Topics everyone is entitled to their opinion and respectfully offer mine.

Mrs. Dub said...

Mique,
Thanks for follow-up. I better understand your viewpoint and reasoning. I applaud you for being an outspoken autism activist and dedicating yourself to finding a cause and cure.
The problem I have is that there isn't enough information now for me to decide against immunizations for Miss Dub. I'm not saying there won't be one day, though I do wonder why you think research has failed to establish a link thus far.
I also understand why you wanted to be safe rather than sorry in terms of giving your other children immunizations instead of aggravating an obvious genetic proclivity for autism. But what about first children? How can someone know if autism is a genetic possibility? Are you suggesting that all parents should play it safe and skip the MMR vaccine at the least? If so, how do you think we would prevent our children from those deadly diseases? (I'm not be facetious, I'm sincerely curious.)
Also, I'm curious to know what you think the exacerbation factor is for immunizations and autism. Do you think it takes autism from dormant to prominent - or just from bad to worse?
This is why I like HTT - it gets me thinking. And worrying as I look at Miss Dub's arm getting red and hard from her shots yesterday. Is that normal?

** Oh, and am I the only one who generally trusts the medical community? Most of you seem soured on docs. I do think some are set in their ways (or just quacks), but as long as we do a good job picking them, shouldn't we basically trust them? (Again, I sincerely want to know, but maybe that's another HT.)
** Sorry this is so long. Can you say that when it's your own blog?

Anonymous said...

Two reasons we have seen a rise in autism: a. it was under diagnosed in the past, and B. it is over diagnosed now. That is what the latest studies have shown. Look it up.
My husband is a physician and has to complete 100 hours of CME a year, he gets daily emails, journals, and other publications that keep him informed and up to date on all aspects of medicine. It is not like they graduate medical school and that is it, the learning continues.
It is difficult to see our children have any sort of problem, but the best way to help them is to deal with it, not point fingers.

Paige from CA

Morgan said...

i'm with you mrs dub, i generally trust the medical community. my FIL is a pediatrician, and i know he is constantly going to conferences and educating himself on all these issues. especially autism, as he has some kids in his practice with it. i put a lot of effort into finding a great doc, and then just go with it, unless i feel weird about something, which i never have. plus i know that i always have my FIL to ask questions and advice, and he is one the kindest, most sincere men i have ever met. i trust him completely!

i agree with one of the commenters that said it is now over diagnosed. many kids are placed on the "autism spectrum" as docs aren't really sure what it is, but they have things that resemble autism, etc.

i also agree that there are also environmental factors that contribute. it could be anything from the foods we eat to the amount of tv that is being watched (which would be another great HTT).

Leisha Mareth said...

I missed a good debate today. I immunize, but I worry. I appreciate Mique's passion and obvious education. I think Mother's of autistic children will probably find the cure. Seriously.

Medicine is constantly evolving. I think it is arrogant to think ANY Dr. (or research for that matter) has it all figured out.

As I was being treated for infertility the general rule changed for a surgery I had in '99 by '04. So in 5 years time, Dr.'s decided that something commonly done was WRONG. And they were some of the BEST rated Dr.'s not only in TX, but in infertility in general.

Do I trust Dr.'s entirely, nope. They are great and very well educated and very good at what they do, but they don't know it all.

I've had a lot of experience with them in various degrees and even with specialists I think it is up to us as patients to research, research, research and take the information to our Dr. to discuss.

Even God himself doesn't want us depending on Him for all the answers...you know, the whole "study it out in your mind" thing?

I think we are partners with Dr.'s to find the answers. And I think mother's like Mique are going to be the one's furthering things along.

Um, I think I'm mixing up my Hot Topics...I think I made more of a case for why I don't entirely trust Dr.'s more than vaccinations. LOL.

Melanie M. McKinnon said...

mique, you have no idea what kind of doctor my father is, how he thinks, how he treats his patients, so you have no right to assume anything about him.

also, the fact that it seems that i'm saying to you 'poor people with kids with autism. but get over it. you just need to deal.' that's like sayaing to me 'poor people with a child who died of SIDS. but get over it. you just need to deal.'

autism has been around for years just never diagnosed. and your child has the advantage of getting OT and ST. it will be great when he can communicate normally for the first time. and i know he can because you seem like a dedicated parent who will keep him motivated.

have hope for him, don't blame vaccinations when they were designed to keep your child alive and then be grateful he is alive.

Amber (EyesofAmber) said...

Mrs. Dub-
In response to your question about being generally trusting of doctors and so many of us seeming soured on doctors, I think part of that has to do with the ages of your children and the number of children that you have.
Unfortunately, I had to learn the hard way, very quickly, that doctors aren't perfect. I took my four day old son to his pediatrician who told me he had no idea what caused some babies to have a reddish, crushed brick looking component in their urine while others did not. Two days later when I went to a lactation consultant, I found out that my son was dehydrating. That red, crushed brick stuff...a sign of dehydration. By the time I got to the lc he was so dehydrated and week that even though he was hungry, he didn't have the energy to wake up and cry for a feeding. Apparently he was a faker, meaning he pretended to swallow even though he wasn't getting anything.
I think as my children have grown and I've had more children, my confidence in my knowledge, experience and good old mother's intuition has increased greatly. Doctors are people, which makes them imperfect. They are also simply going to have differing ideas than we do sometimes, and we are the parent. We are the ones that live with the child and the consequences of any decisions that we make. They know the textbooks, we know our individual child. They can give wonderful advice, but we have to put that into practice in the way that works for us.
We changed pediatricians quickly after I realized that ours had missed a sign of dehydration that I was able to find in five minutes on the internet. (This is the same doctor who told my mother when I was 14 that I could not possibly have a hormone imbalance because he'd never seen anyone that young with an imbalance. Guess what, I had a major hormone imbalance!)
I love our current pediatrician, he's willing to listen to my concerns. If he doesn't know, he'll tell you that! My second had an infected tear duct that took two rounds of antibiotics to remedy which caused him to develop thrush. He was teething, so he rubbed the thrush all over his face, causing an allergic reaction to the yeast! Our doc had never seen it before, but sat there with us going through his medical books until he could find an explanation and a treatment plan.
There are good doctors out there, even wonderful ones, but it's a business, and you have to remember that. Find a doctor you're comfortable with, whether it be your pediatrician, your family doctor, your ob, whatever. Remember that it's okay to question a doctor, sometimes their answers are very reassuring, and sometimes they give you reason to pause and maybe that's a good thing to. Just remember, it's your body or your child's body and you are the one who has to live with whatever decisions are made so you definitely have the right to question!
Wow, I'm longwinded today. Apparently I've missed writing much more than I thought...LOL.

go boo boo said...

We immunize. But I don't do it without questioning and freaking out about it. But nurse C is always quick to say, "I've seen the effects on not immunizing and so it doesn't bother me to jab these kids repeatedly with the needles", or something to that effect.

go boo boo said...

Oh yeah, just a few weeks ago, after my daughter's one year well check and some shots, she totally got the resulting measles! 3rd kid and no reaction previous to this, I was a freak! But a late night, weekend call set me straight that all was well, but it totally wigged me out the same.

Laura and the family said...

Mrs. Dub,

After reading your blog and the comments, I have had mixed feelings about the immunization because I am a deaf mom with a hearing 6 year old mildly autism.

The reason why I was debating myself was that he did have a few words before he was 18 months old. After the shot was given, he was not himself again for a while. (It took me a year to recognize the signs because I assumed it is typical for hearing children of deaf parents having a language delay.)

But after I looked all through of his pictures before and after the shots, I did see that he did not smile as much as my older son. I assumed he was a very serious child. That left me a question whether it was a first sign of autism before he had an immunization shot at 18 months old.

It took me a while to accept the fact that he does have a mild autism whether it was affected by a shot or not. The point was that I had to take the responsibilities to work with him on every aspect areas: Reading, Writing, Communication and Socialization.

Nowadays, he does it beautifully because he is now nearly a full-time mainstream Kindergarten at a grade level. What I am saying is that from my experience as a mother of an autism son and a teacher of deaf junior high school students, I have seen the improvement if the parent works with a child excessively. (My mother did it to me, otherwise, I would not have graduated with a Master Degree in Teaching.) We have to realize that dropping a child at school is a babysitting area, and let the teacher teaches him or her at school alone. It is a team work!

Even though I have worked excessively with both of my sons at home in all areas, I still do have a fear for the next immunization especially for the younger ones on MMR. I have mixed feelings whether I should let the doctor give him the immunization shot because I know that many immunization shots have prevent from any tragic diseases.

Kelley Bochman Smith said...

Wow, I am totally impressed with all of you young mothers out there who are imformed and open minded,that is the reason you are good mothers and I applaud all of your efforts in raising healthy children. When people say that the world is going down the toilet, I just think of how great the people are that I have "met" in the blogoshere. On the whole immunization issue, and all other issues that there are for us to choose from in surviving in this world, I think first: find information, then second: follow your gut.....

Charlotte said...

This is such a hot topic for me. I worked with children with autism for 15 years so I've heard it all. I can say this... it is difficult to remember if your child exhibited "symptoms" before their vaccination. I mean, come on... most of us are still surviving on minimal sleep at that point. But every time I ever had a parent bring in a video of "before" the vaccine... I could pick out symptoms (does that make sense... my newest arrival is only 5 weeks- thus no sleep).

Although I truly believe that when they really begin to understand autism, they will find that it isn't just one thing. It is a disorder that has many causes. However, the only research/explanation that makes any sense to me is this: kids with autism, like schizophrenia have a "trigger" gene. They might be born with it, but it doesn't show up until it is triggered by something else... usually a high fever. In this case, the high fever results from the vaccines.. but it could also result from any other common childhood illness.

I could go on and on with personal stories... things I've seen and kids that got autism even when they weren't vaccinated- but it looks as if enough has been said already. Let me just end by saying after 15 years of hearing and seeing it all, I vaccinated all 4 of my kids.

Anonymous said...

Whoa! This HTT is literally turned HOT!

I belive in immunizations but for my children it will be after the age of six. This does not come from many hours researching on the internet, rather long and lengthy discussions with competent people I trust. I have also disscused this with my pediatrician and he told me that when I was ready we could discuss which shots are necessary. He said that there are some that we really need and others that we don't. I truly think that children are way over immunized.

Leslie said...

After reading all of the comments, I do think that maybe awareness needs to be brought to the forefront. Having said that, I also think that my children should be immunized. I haven't been paying attention to what they've been given though and i'm thinking now that maybe I should? My daughter hasn't had her 18 month shots yet. Perhaps having them spaced out over more time is better? I'll have to look into it. But thanks Mrs. Dub! Without this post, I wouldn't have learned so much and even thought about it. I mean, i'd heard of the concern but having family members in the medical field I've always been told how important immunizations are.

Bottom line for me: My children will be immunized. But, I do think it is more important to be knowledgable about it. Maybe we've been too dismissive?

Heather said...

Yes we immunize. I will say that I have my kids immunized on a modified schedule so that they don't have to have 4-5 shots everytime (that's just to save their beautifully chubby legs from all those pokes).
I spent my career before children working as a special education teacher. I also agree that there might be a "trigger gene" but there is also a lot of research that supports a theory that autism spectrum disorders may be linked the mothers mental health. The research I have read is very interesting and insightful. I think it's great that we, as mothers can discuss the big issues and "hear" eachothers point of view without wearing our "I know better than you crowns". We have all been given charge of these beautiful little spirits and we are each allowed to make decisions for our families. That is the beauty of it.

mrs. dph said...

Did anyone see the story on CNN of the pediatric neurologist and his wife, a nurse, who had three children and their youngest started showing signs of autism right after her 18 month shots? She got like 9 shots in one day. I watched the whole news conference. Fascinating. Anyway, they got some landslide court ruling in their favor. The dad(dr.) said he felt there were 2 kinds of autism--one genetic and one caused by environmental influences.

I have an autistic brother and 5 children. I immunize and pray and worry about it. I also never, never, immunize if my babies have a runny nose or a cold. Why? I don't want to overtax the immune system and if they spike a fever later that night, you don't know if its a shot reaction or from the cold.

Carina said...

I'll start trusting my doctor more the minute he actually updates his handouts and stops making asinine statements.

All that being said, he's a nice guy, good with the kids, has a convenient office with great after hours support, so I tolerate the little things.

I find it's easier to split the doctor's advice into two segments: medical and parenting. I don't want your parenting advice, I will, however, listen to your medical advice. The trick is knowing which is which.

So no, I don't trust my doctor.

Carina said...

Because he's HUMAN.

KT said...

Just be careful about your "sources" on the interent. Anyone can write anything, and a lot of the time it's just opinion. I don't give a whole lot of clout to internet studies. Most of the time, you have to pay to get access to a real medical journal, which makes me wonder where people get a lot of their "facts." Like most professions, doctors continue their research after they've established their practice. That being said, I do agree that some doctors are more about the money than they are about actually listening to the patient. I believe you need to find a doctor you feel comfortable with and talk to him/her about your concerns.

Anonymous said...

I am the neuropsychologist-to-be friend that was referenced, and my wife informed about this post. Although nobody may be reading this topic anymore, I thought I should clarify a few things. I should first state that my line of research is in epilepsy and brain development. However, I do work in a pediatric autism clinic and I do have the scientific training to obtain and critically evaluate the literature.
I want to focus on addressing a few misperceptions:
1. I would not go as far as to say that autism signs are ignored by parents -- published studies and my clinical experience have shown that the signs of autism sometimes aren't seen until certain ages (or age ranges, more accurately). The human brain is undergoing massive changes at the age at which autism spectrum disorders (ASDs) appear. These changes also coincide with vaccination schedules. It takes considerable evidence to prove that vaccinations cause autism. No valid research on this topic exists, which brings me to my next point.
2. A few people have posted that their husbands are scientists/doctors who are somewhat familiar with the literature. This is great. However, my biggest complaint with those who argue for the ASD-vaccination link is that they have not actually read the studies. Reading an "article" on MSN or a news website does not constitute knowledge of the article. Second hand knowledge on scientific topics is often poorly and inaccurately relayed. I honestly doubt that the general public is going to the peer-reviewed scientific journals, reading them, and if they do, understanding them. (In fact, most of these articles aren't even available to the public -- you must go through the publisher or a university to get them). Even if you obtain the article, you must have the methodological and statistical training to effectively evaluate these studies. I can say I have obtained these articles, that I have the training to evaluate them, and there is absolutely no convincing scientific evidence whatsoever to link ASD to vaccinations. In addition to my readings, I have spoken with the leading experts in the field. I have attended presentations at professional conferences, school, and my clinical sites. I think the consistency between all of these resources provides substantial support on this issue and cannot be dismissed so readily.
3. It is also important to recognize that many of the studies are in part sponsored by the drug companies, but not all of the drug companies produce vaccines, and therefore, have no financial interest in the outcome of the study. Legitimate journals require authors to disclose who their funding is from and this should be explicitly stated in the article. Sponsorship by a drug company does not automatically discount the study.
4. I don't want to discount people's personal experiences, but anecdotal evidence is insufficient to provide the critical link. There is always an exception to the rule. We all know somebody who has smoked for the last 60 years and is as healthy as a horse -- this doesn't mean that smoking does not have bad effects. It just doesn't prove the link.

You absolutely have the right to make your own decisions regarding this issue and your children's vaccinations, but please make adequately informed decisions backed by a first hand knowledge of the facts rather than relying on individual cases or second hand information. There is nothing wrong with skepticism, but making adamant claims that defy the body of evidence cannot be considered healthy skepticism.

Rachel said...

I immunize. I don't know enough about the research to state 'facts' but I know that what I've read and talked with multiple pediatricians that the autism link is not supported by them.
It frightens me to think of where we would be if everyone just stopped immunizing their children.
Great post. Well written. Obviously well thought out and no sign of attacking. Wonderful.

One Crazy Chick! said...

Hells yes we immunize because I know if my children ended up with autism it was in no way related to the actual immunizations themselves. It is a genetic condition that reveals itself at the same time immunizations are bombarded on our children. While I don't totally agree that multiple shots at once is a good idea - the immunizations themselves are doing 99.999999% good with the remaining .0000001% getting mild side effects.

Good topic - interesting to hear what others have to say!

Krazy Khania said...

I completely agree to immunize your children why would you not do it? As Icm said they "are for the better good of everyone"
Absolutly! I have a taught 2 autistic children and neither of the parents believe vaccines were the cause.

Capturing Joy with Kristen Duke said...

wow, this was a lot to read. I haven't done a ton of research on it myself, but I have been nervous at each of the 3 childrens 18 month check up...good advice here to not immunize if my child has a cold, etc.

Unknown said...

Ok. First let me state that one of my mothers friends had her child die because she had vaccinations. She actually caught the disease that the vaccine was supposed to be preventing. The mother wishes she would have done more research and that he docotor would have told her there was a possibility of that happening.

That being said, I still vaccinate my children. All 3 of them. The likelyhood of the side effects are small and they're even smaller for he major side effects. But It's kind of like when you ask the doctor about the risks of an epidural. Most likely they are going to try to downplay them so you don't wig out. Because, really, the likelyhood of having complications is not high.

About the ASD being over diagnosed. I have heard of children who's doctors pushed for an autism diagnosis where later that proved to not be the cause. I also have a niece who has something going on that everyone around her swears is ASD but because she is a girl and who knows what other reasons, they are hesistant to diaganos ASD on her.

I think right now it's similar to the over diagnosis of ADD and ADHD. Because the doctors have so many patients and so little time, most of the time they treat the symptoms or name the closest thing they can think of without much individual research and hope that makes it all go away. It's a matter of hearing hoofbeats and thinking "horses" when sometimes those hoofbeats are made by a zebra.

Parents do have to be proactive to make sure that everything is considered, but they also have to understand when to take certain information with a grain of salt (aka internet info) and when to trust the medical professional. And also when to get a second opinion :) My oldest son has APD (Audio Processing Disorder) and my pediatrician didn't have a clue what I was talking about when I mentioned the possibility after much research. Thankfully he is a wonderful pediatrician and was happy to refur me to someone who could test for ADD etc... That doctor sent me to get a hearing test for my son ... the audiologist suggested APD. So being well informed as a parent and being willing to question even medical professionals is a MUST.

Katie said...

If immunizations really work then you mother's who immunize should have nothing to worry about. It is a personal decision. Everyone should educate themselves and then pray about it. We all have the right to choose what we feel is best for our families, whether it is to immunize or not.

msmani said...

Thank you for the info. It sounds pretty user friendly. I guess I’ll pick one up for fun. thank u

MMR