musings and misadventures: HTT

12.11.2007

HTT - Nude Edition

I know we've discussed nudity already here at Hot Topic Central, but it's early, I might have to puke, and I don't have the mental energy to think of something else.

This time the topic is more specific (and recommended by someone who just might be married to someone related to my Mr. Someone).

She wants to take a figure drawing class. He thinks it's not appropriate, and not because he doesn't like charcoal pencils. He takes issue with the fact that she would be sketching nude models who - get this - will actually be nude in front of her during the class.

As you might guess, I don't understand his concern. Sure, I'm against pornography and gratuitous nudity, but sketching the human form is body appreciation at its best, in my opinion. There is nothing salacious or even sexual about it. Knowing how to sketch every line of the human body is an essential skill for any artist, especially one who deals with human subjects.

So there are my two cents - or should it be five dollars? I mean, that's an old phrase and inflation should really be reflected, don't you think?

Anyhow, even though I'm pretty firm in my stance, I don't want you to hide yours. If you think nudity is naughty no matter what, do tell. And please explain your viewpoint, remembering that some of us who disagree share your same values.

Also, would you feel uncomfortable attending a nude drawing class, even if you approve of the concept?

And would you ever hang a piece of nude art in your home? Personally, I don't have any, but I wouldn't be against it. As long as the woman's body didn't too closely mirror my own. That would be creepy!

Let's get honest!

... And if you're totally uninterested in baring your thoughts, go here for a good Christmas gift idea by Printakid.

43 comments:

Angy said...: i dont think there's anything wrong with it, personally. i dont think i'd hang nude art but i can certainly appreciate it. and i wouldnt look at a nude art class as pornography or anything negative. like you said, it's the human form and for an artist, those skills are essential.; 8:26 AM
Carolyn said...: Great topic--very "debatable!" Personally I do not think I could do that art class. There is NO WAY I would ever pose nude myself, so I would feel hypocritical saying that someone else could in front of me. I also wouldn't put up a nude painting of myself on the wall, so again I would feel some what of a hyprocrit doing that as well. Honestly, I usually feel uncomfortable looking at art that reveals "private parts" probably because we have been taught our whole life that those parts are, ummmm, private. So, perhaps I am not very cultured on this one, but I felt I had to be honest about how I really feel.; 8:46 AM
Katrina said...: This is a topic that I have wanted to write about on my blog one of these days too. I grew up with an artist for a mother. We always had art books in our home full of nude art. I have seen some of her art from college where she drew/painted nude forms from live models. I never thought much of it.

Then in college I did a study abroad with the art department at BYU and one of my good friends (an artist) who is male said he didn't think nude art was appropriate. I remember being shocked because I thought all artists were ok with it. It definitely made me think a little. Basically my conclusion is that some people do see it as titillatingly and so for them perhaps they should avoid it. I certainly don't view it that way. I think the human body is absolutely beautiful. I do have a print in my home of a sketch by Rodin of a nude dancer.

A really interesting novel about art and religious values that broaches this topic is "My Name is Asher Lev" by Chaim Potok.; 9:35 AM
Cichelli said...: I'd hang your nude body type on my wall. You're hot. In fact, maybe you should send out sketchings of just that for a christmas card this year...; 9:48 AM
sara said...: I would definitely be against that. If it is so important to know how to sketch a nude, look at yourself in the mirror, or your spouse. There is no way I would want my husband going to a class like that and there's no way he'd want me to either. Nudity's for the bedroom.

And I would not have any nude art in my home. Where do you draw the line? I think if I had a nude drawing/painting hanging on my wall, I'd have a pretty hard time telling my kid to stay away from the Playboys. Seems like a double-standard to me... you could call anything "art" if you wanted to.; 10:10 AM
Jenny said...: like carolyn said, i would not be comfortable posing nude, so i feel a little hypocritical saying it's ok for others. i think you have to be careful with it. to many, it wouldn't be pornography, but i think for others they may be a fine line, or it could lead to an interest in pornography. not for everyone, just saying . . .

i had an art major roommate at ricks, and they didn't have nude drawing classes. their figure classes had people pose in swimsuits. they also studied anatomy, so i think there are ways around it if you're not comfortable w/ nudes.; 10:20 AM
Lizzie said...: My husband is a very talented artist http://www.thevintagebug.blogspot.com/
when we were newly married I remember feeling uncomfortable the first time he went over to the art museum where they have nude models. It definitely took some understanding and adjustment. But, as I began to understand that it really is not something sexual and that there is nothing more artistic then the human body - my initial concern shifted to a real appreciation.

He has drawn me nude and I would hang it in our home. Probably not where the home teachers could see it while visiting but maybe in his drawing room.

And would I pose nude for other artists? I have definitely though about it especially now that I am pregnant and have some extra curves - I just don't think I could sit still for that long!; 10:26 AM
Carina said...: The husband is
a:) Uptight
b.) Wrong
c.) Still wrong but should maybe consider educating himself in the fine arts so that he feels more comfortable with the idea. I prescribe Art History 101.

The nude body is a masterpiece of art as created by God. Just because the nude has been twisted by the porn industry (just as they twist love) doesn't mean that the original beauty or utility has subsided.

Those who have painted and sketched the human nude understand that you are looking at the muscles and shapes that make up the body, it is about as un-sexual as it gets.

I get upset when people suggest there is something wrong with a nude work of art. What is the intent of the art? Is it to titillate? Maybe I wouldn't display it. Is the intent a study or a celebration of our mortal forms? Or is the nudity simply a way the artist has of showing their skill? I would display a nude in my home if I liked it.

Are you telling me that
The David
The Venus de Milo
Manet's Olympia
are somehow morally dubious and obscene? Patently specious.

I HATED that in my college art classes our models were forced to wear swimsuits/bodysuits. You can't see the muscle shapes underneath their bodysuits, it limited my learning.; 10:37 AM
zeeny said...: One of my friends who was an art major at a university in Utah and had to draw nude sketches...from nude models had many men stop dating her when they found this out. Crazy to me. I think we should appreciate the body God gave us. I think sometimes our mormon culture gets so wrapped up in nude being bad that a lot of nudity get blown out of proportion and people start feeling badly about their own bodies. There is a time and place for nudity. If a piece of art really touched me I would not be opposed to hanging it in my home due to nudity. I mean, come on people, how many of you haven't gauked over those naked baby calendars...isn't that nudity!?; 10:47 AM
Anonymous said...: My father in law has some nude photos in his bedroom. He is married, but the pics were there before the wife was. I ALWAYS think it is weird to go into this man's bedroom and see naked women on the wall. Yes, they are subtle and very "tasteful." But why don't you just get some Playboy centerfolds and rip them out and stick them on the wall? No way would I have it.

And if you can't tell, I echo my older, wise sista, Sara.; 12:15 PM
Jessi said...: We, too, are a house divided on this issue. I find the human body to be the ultimate masterpiece. It is beautiful in both form and function and the idea of showcasing it in art seems totally appropriate. My husband, however, believes that because the body is a sacred instrument it should be kept private. When Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden the Lord gave them clothing to cover their nakedness. He believes that same pattern should apply to us.

Interesting discussion!; 12:18 PM
hilari said...: I think the people who are against it aren't artists. Nakedness isn't secret, it is sacred, that is a big difference. People that can't see the difference between a Playboy centerfold and the statue of David just don't understand.; 12:35 PM
bedelia said...: 1)I would feel weird in an art class with nudes posing.
2)I really would never want a daughter or son of mine posing nude.
3)I think it is kind of circular logic for artists to use drawing muscles as an arguement for why its ok to draw nudes...because it in no way justifies drawing nudes. Really, all it means is "you can't draw nudes without seeing nudes."

With that said, I grew up with a mini sculpture of "The Kiss" by Rodin and I love it. I was sad when BYU wouldn't show it. I think its a beautiful depiction of love. And if I had one I would proudly display it in my front room. But then again, what if one of my sons did find it titillating and didn't understand that it stands for "love" and not "sex and lust," despite my teachings. And thus he was led away into carnal delights. So I suppose I see the art but don't trust others to see it and since I wouldn't want to be the catalyst for someone's life of carnal delights, I'll just keep my Rodin tucked away until my kids are mature enough to understand and know what love is and how beautiful the body truly is.; 12:50 PM
Anonymous said...: I have no problem with it .I am not dying to be nude in front of other people but who knows maybe when Im 80 Ill go for it.My Mom Hubby and sista have taken the class and they have some good stories but no issues. Im into modesty but not amish freakiness- and I still have the tendency to moon people.( Does that make me dirty or a 12 yr old boy? )
I also modeled for a figure drawing class at byu hawaii and they needed real nudes -my flesh colored leotard didnt do anyone any favors. I did get a few free lunches after work but that was probably just the aloha spirit.; 12:57 PM
Heidi said...: I have a dear brother in law who posed for the figure drawing classes at BYU, just so he could say that he did it.

When he went for his first day of work, the lady handed him his Speedo and said, "Here's your party suit."

That has nothing to do with the topic, but I'm like that. I'm also okay with nude drawings, although I'm not so keen on personally posing nude. Only because I wouldn't want my mother-of-three, stretch-marked body immortalized. It's pure vanity.; 1:03 PM
hilari said...: carnal delights?, what the!?!; 1:15 PM
Anonymous said...: bedelia- You are obviously not an artist. Art is about seeing. You have to be able to see something to fully understand and draw it. If someone is wear a skin colored unitard you cant see how the skin and muscles hang off the bones or the real movement of the human form.; 1:19 PM
kristenita said...: I'm with you mrs dub. totally ok. with all of it. nude models. nude art. I don't have any in my home but just because right now I am CHEAP...

I thought it was RIDICULOUS when people protested the rodin exibit at the byu several years back. porn is one thing. art is another.; 1:20 PM
Unknown said...: there is nothing inherently evil or pornographic about the human body. the way a body is displayed and the way it is viewed can change that entirely.

i also think having a neutrally posed nude model is far less sexual than a scantily clad one. a small amount of clothing (a bikini or a speedo) could serve to stir up the imagination. when you have nothing to imagine, you can focus on your work, which should be entirely nonsexual anyway.

i say if you feel uncomfortable sketching nudes or displaying "nude art" (i hate calling it that but i can't think of a better descriptor) in your home, don't do it. if you are at all concerned that it might not be kosher, just avoid it. that said, i don't have a problem with either one.

and i emphatically second katrina on the "asher lev" recommendation.; 2:18 PM
Leisha Mareth said...: How timely, I just saw 'The Best of Will Ferrel' on SNL last Sat. The one where he played a nude model? Anyone? Anyone? I'll just laugh by myself here.

I'm not against it. I'm not a 'true' artist either. So, I think I would be childishly grossed out by some strange man's junk in my face. Also, I think I wouldn't want some sexy baby posing for my husband in an art class (if she were old and wrinkly, fine.); 2:25 PM
janaya said...: i love greece, florence, rome, paris... you can't love those places and not appreciate the human form on display... EVERYwhere. seriously... greek men really had a thing for naked greek men though. anyway, i have to say that i honestly (really, honestly) came home from europe with a new appreciation for my own shape... and frankly, my husbands. sure, i'm ready to hit the gym and go on a diet in january... but we really are pretty amazing creations. i see "nude" art pretty much akin to nudity on the discovery channel. in most instances, it's not vulgar or shocking... just innocent and beautiful.

that's my two cents. didn't really answer the question though. :) sorry. take the class. don't take the class. whatever. to each her/his own, i guess.; 2:55 PM
Anonymous said...: I love how everyone is so artistic and cultural and not a member of the sheltered Mormon lifestyle at all...

In thought.

Everyone is saying, "I wouldn't have a problem with it" or "I would hang up nude art in my home" or "I would sketch nude models" blah blah blah.

The truth of the matter is, the majority of you are saying you "would" be okay with it. If you totally think it's acceptable, then why don't you actually have nude art hanging from your walls?

I am calling you all out. Because I don't believe you. Quit trying to sound so culturally above the rest of us.; 3:22 PM
Kris said...: I wouldn't want to attend a class where I would have to draw a nude human. I mean really, I don't want to learn by braille to draw! Geesh!; 4:45 PM
zeeny said...: Jennifer...if you are willing to buy and frame a nice piece of art for me that happens to have nudity in it I will gladly accept.; 5:00 PM
Anonymous said...: hahahah yo jennifer since when is being mormon mean you're sheltered?

bite me; 5:23 PM
Charlotte said...: My husband is an artist (www.tylerhuntzinger.com) and had to draw nudes in school. Maybe it was just the school he went to, but he found most of the models more disgusting than anything. I mean, how many people do you know that would pose nude for a bunch of strangers to draw? It wasn't Victoria Secret, let me tell you! I have posed for him many times over the years (mostly when I was younger and before the babies- but that's my hang-up, not his!). I don't have a problem with hanging them in my home (we had a "nude" drawing of me in our bathroom for years- but it was just my back). Very tasteful =); 7:54 PM
Wonderland Girl said...: I'm afraid the only thing I couldn't think of, is would I say yes if it was a woman my husband would be drawing? I wouldn't love that idea. :); 8:09 PM
Carrie said...: All I have to say, WWJD? What would Jesus do? Hmmm, probably not pose nude. And Pres. Hinckley? He probably wouldn't either. And he probably didn't when he was younger. I agree with the person who said to enjoy nudity in your bedroom (and if you're like me, with the lights out...)

Okay, I guess thats not all I had to say. In a world that pushes us futher and further from the white and into the gray we seem to be going that direction far too willingly. My goal is to stay so far from temptation that I don't get tempted. Richard G Scott gave a great talk about it. Wish I had a link. Satan will try harder to tempt those closer to temptation than those that are far from it.

Now off of my soapbox... I can appreciate nude art. It doesn't make me uncomfortable if seen in a gallery. Yes, the human body is beautiful, I just don't get why I would NEED to participate in it or be around it on that level. And I do not want my kids to be around it until they are mature enough to appreciate it as ART.

In the end, I say to each is own, but I wouldn't do it (pose or paint) and I won't have it in my house.; 8:51 PM
Carrie said...: PS I'd like to add an adendum to my previos statement that the body is beautiful... it is. Like the muscles, the functionality, the smooth curves etc, but in all honesty men's 'private parts'? Not so pretty.

So just wear the speedo and lets all appreciate 'semi nude' art. Start a new trend.; 8:57 PM
Anonymous said...: I love how Jennifer is a freakin Taliban Mormon . Thanks for the 'call out' it realy motivated me to change my wicked ways and reintroduce jello into my diet - you are a life saver and total idiot.; 1:46 AM
Katrina said...: Very fun discussion!

Carrie, I have one thought about what you said about not wanting your kids around it until they can appreciate it. I did grow up looking at nudity in art. (Not that I ever attended a class with a nude model as a child). But art of all kinds was accessible to me in my mom's art books. And I have to say that I never viewed it as anything but "art". It was always very clear what that's what it was. I think if we educate our children, they will appreciate it for what it is.; 7:25 AM
Carolyn said...: I just have to say something that has nothing to do with this topic--I NEVER thought I would see on Mrs. Dub's site people name calling each other and being so rude. I mean, this is not a chat room--it is a site of a lovely young lady who wants to create "fun" topics to discuss. So please, let's at least repect each other's opinions all right? I LOVE HTT, but not if it gets rude!
P.S. I know it's a day late, but hopefully this still gets read.; 8:32 AM
Mrs. Dub said...: it's true - this got more heated than i expected, though both sides had great points.

there's only one solution - let's all go skinny dipping!; 8:40 AM
Carina said...: Oh Jennifer, you’re right, I have no nudes at home, but I have a simple explanation: I prefer non-representational art, particularly abstract expressionism and cubism.

A Kandinsky sings to me more than a Titian.

I did have a Klimt hanging for several years, but then I changed the design of my house and it doesn’t “go” anymore. I have no problem with nudity in art. I would and have displayed it, if I like the piece.

I grew up in a home with the Pre-Raphaelites, Picasso, and Klimt, along side the Vermeer, the Durer, and the Fra Angelico. I am very comfortable with most nudity in art because it’s just ART.; 5:08 PM
Kelley Bochman Smith said...: I am one of those wacky Mormons who have actually taken classes and drawn nude people, all colors of skin and all shapes and sizes. The first 10 minutes of my very first class was a little uncomfortable because I had never seen anyone nude except my babies and hunk of a husband! In my personal experience, I have come to appriciate all the many differences and wonderfulness of the bodies that God has created for us. The experience has never been sexual, just beautiful. But, as LDS people, we think a lot of things are the only way things should be because of the culture that many of us have been brought up with. That is changing as the Church is becoming so world wide now. I also think that if Christ or our dear Pres. Hinkley had the time and inclination to create fine art, they wouldn't have a problem with it. (All taken from the Book of Kelley) and only my humble opinion. Also shame of the meaness, "can't we all just get along?"; 7:39 PM
Rachael said...: In one of my graduate courses at BYU, we had a textbook that had nudes on the inner cover. The "outer" part of the cover was cut out in places so you could see bits and pieces of the nudes behind (it was a Rubens, if I recall correctly). Anyway, we all laughed about the fact that the bookstore turned the books face down and that the cashiers gave us weird looks when we were buying them, but then I realized that all semester I would read with the book down on my desk so that nobody could see the cover. I was fine with it, but I was somewhat embarassed to be walking around with it on campus.

That said, I would personally be fine myself drawing nudes. I'd be fine having a nude sculpture in my home (the only reason I don't have Rodin's The Kiss is that I can't afford a decent reproduction. Yet). But I don't know how comfortable I'd be with my husband taking a nude drawing class. If he was an artist, I probably wouldn't care, but as an engineer...I would.; 8:42 PM
Ilene said...: Funny to read about the people who are so against it. Do you care that doctors study nudes all of the time? For all artists, being able to correctly depict the human body is essential to their trade- just as a doctor has to come in contact with the human body in his studies and profession.

Studied art history and am grateful for the nude studies or we could still be getting art that looked like it came from the middle ages or Egypt.

Funny thing that got me (and a Professor) mad about the Rodin exhibit thing was that it prohibited female nudes from viewing. It was okay for the male nudes to be shown. That irked me.; 9:47 PM
Bartimaeus said...: I am the husband. I am not gymnophobic. I am also not uptight. This HT has been running through my mind non-stop for the last 20 hours, make that 36. My stance has been reaffirmed, changed, turned around and then reaffirmed. I would agree with those who have stated that nudity should be cherished within the walls of your private home/room. I recognize that the human body is a beautiful thing. A thing to be honored and cherished and respected. I can see the beauty in nude art and how it can glorify the human body.

However, especially in the face of all the warnings about pornography, I cannot escape a sense of great caution is this area. I know that nude art is not porn, at least not the majority of it. But as a male I am much more susceptible to the sexual effects nudity causes. Who is to say where the point is where I or any other person will be affected even by the most innocent exposures to nudity (especially in adolescence).

In my health care training I have been exposed to much nudity as well. It takes mental preparation and training to look at things in a “scientific” or “medical” way, especially in a world where the human body has become so sensualized. It takes training and education to be able to handle nudity in medicine as well as art. And how many men get that training???

I was recently at a high class hospital fundraiser. The theme was Italy and the centerpiece of the whole ballroom was “David.” I can tell you that this majestic, time honored piece of art was not merely admired as ART, but was the subject of a lot of “silly” photos, and this by the highly educated upper class of society.

So my stance on this whole nude model/nude art could be summed up as ‘be cautious and don’t think that just because it is “ART” it can’t affect someone or draw someone toward nudity that is not “ART”’. Addiction to pornography begins with mere curiosity and sometimes accidental exposure.; 9:33 AM
Mrs. Dub said...: wow, bart!

who's your comments writer?

that was very insightful.; 1:53 PM
go boo boo said...: i liked the "Doctor seeing naked people" argument. It's like a professional thing. No biggie. I have some "nude" bums of my kids hanging in the house so THERE to the mormon skeptics.; 8:11 PM
Anonymous said...: sorry, just passing through and couldn't resist commenting.

my background: i was raised in a (LDS) home full of art, some of which was nude as we're calling it here. additionally, i majored in art at the U of U and took 2 life drawing classes. these classes were hands-down the best education i got at the U. i learned more and improved greatly as an artist in those 2 classes than in any other class. during that time, i was aware of the rodin "scandal" going on at BYU, as well as the fact that the life drawing models there are covered (bathing suits, body suits, whatever.) i couldn't help but wonder how students there weren't being cheated out of the full experience and education.

it is apparent that some here equate nudity with sexuality. i'm here to tell you, there is absolutely nothing sexual in these life drawing classes. it is detailed study of the body, nothing more. no one is titilated by the models. i'll echo the previous post by assuring you that most of the people who model for these classes are the kind of people you never want to see nude, there is little arousing about any of them.

the simple fact: one cannot become a great artist without studying the human form. and there is nothing immoral, sinful, or shameful about it.

furthermore, the doctor analogy is dead on. i'm guessing the women in this forum wouldn't want to go to a gynecologist who had never studied the female pelvic region, or only seen it covered by a bathing suit. are gynecologists perverts? (probably some...haha!) should medical schools cover (or simply remove) the genitals of cadavers in their labs? would you take your car to a mechanic who had never opened up the hood of a car? why or why not? the same applies to the arts.

now having said that, i understand the husband's post about exposure to the undesirable aspects of nudity and pornography. however, growing up in a house where nude art was around (boobies! it's the end of the world!) i can tell you that since there was nothing naughty about it, i wasn't, and have never really been tempted to look at porn, because there was no curiosity to be satisfied. from a young age, to me there was nothing secret or shameful for me to be curious about wanting to find out more. and from the experience of having kids, they sure do want what they can't have. i believe that if you treat the body as something to hide, to be ashamed of...of course kids are going to be curious as to why, and they're probably going to go elsewhere, out of your control, to find it. now i'm not advocating some kind of hippie world where everyone is a nudist, but our society is pretty puritanical about this subject. it's pretty simple: if it's scandalous or salacious, human nature is to seek it out and find out why.

lastly, the WWJD comment was just wrong. jesus/pres. hinckley would never attend or model for one of these classes, so you're sinning if you do. oh come on. that's about as narrow-minded as it gets. i'm guessing jesus would probably never paint his face and go to a hockey game either. or try BASE jumping. or microwave a burrito. (hey, those are some pretty good mental images)

if you're squeamish about nudity, fine. don't hang nude artwork in your house. turn the lights off during you-know-what. just don't be surprised to find your kid looking at porn online because he's never seen a nude woman and needs to satisfy this curiosity.

nudity does not equal sexual impurity.; 5:13 PM
Bartimaeus said...: Come on anonymous, use your name! I would like to know if you are male or female.

My latest thought on this subject is that nudity in art exists on a spectrum. It can range from a naked stick figure, abstract art all the way to pornographic photos or videos. Who can say where I will be affected/stimulated on this spectrum?

Oh and btw who was it that clothed Adam and Eve's nakedness as they left the Garden of Eden to enter this world? Just a thought...; 7:18 AM
Bartimaeus said...: BTW I consider myself to be an amatuer artist in the art of photography...Can I take nude photos then or is that porn?; 7:21 AM