(Blogger note: I've included an updated bit of explanation at the bottom. Please read if you are confused, bewildered or plain mad at me!)
Today’s hot topic is near and dear to every Mormon’s heart. (Sorry to my non-LDS readers – all 3 of you!)
That subject would be Utah Mormons or Utah in general.
Because it’s a love-hate web we all weave with the Beehive State.
Growing up LDS in Arizona, everybody talked about “Utah Mormons” – how they looked different (huge hair), talked different (“Oh my heck”) and worshipped different (“My son is so the AP and yours isn’t!”) . They had bigger Suburbans (12-15 seaters, seriously), bigger activities (“Take that ward budget!) and bigger complexes (“Am I as skinny as Sister Jones?”).
And there was some truth to it then. At that time, most people living in Utah were born and raised there. And, at that time, most of Utah was LDS. So many people confused the local culture with the local religion. (“Mom, is mutual a state law?”) Lines blurred between church and state, ward activities and social activities, personal standards and business ethics. So many youth never realized the religious importance of seminary but worried about the seminary council elections. And some residents judged each other on their church activity level rather than their neighborly kindness. For this reason, Utah Mormons got a bad reputation with Mormons in other states. We stereotyped them as more secular, less spiritual and sheltered.
But then people from other states and religions began to move in. The Mormon incomers encouraged the real essence of the LDS religion (Christ-like love, obedience and service) that already existed among most Utah Mormons and the non-Mormons helped define the line between being a Utahn and being a Mormon. Which helped everybody live a little better and little nearer to God, I think.
This is the Utah I lived in as a college student and newlywed. It’s still insanely Mormon, which is usually a good thing because it’s created a unique community where families look out for each other, neighbors know each other and safety and peace surround you. But Utah is growing, diversifying and opening its heart to other religions and the simple tenants of Mormonism. The hair is smaller, though still big. The Suburbans are more scarce, though still prominent. The ward activities are humbler, though still impressive.
But the complexes are still there … which is why I’m still hesitant about moving to Utah, although there is good and bad everywhere you go. (And most of this musing could be applied to any area with a high concentration of any religious or ethnic group.)
First, there is still a superiority complex among some Utah Mormons. As if living in Utah makes you a better Mormon, or that you care more about your family by moving there. I don’t think there’s anything wrong about living in Utah, but I don’t think there’s anything better about it either. And I DO NOT believe that your kids will turn out any better or any more active by growing up in Utah. If anything, I think they may have to work a little harder to gain a testimony since there are fewer missionary opportunities, easier rationalization (“But Kara is doing it and she’s a Mormon!”) and a greater chance for ignorance. And, let’s face it, teenagers like to be different. And being different in Utah often means being bad.
And don’t tell me that people who don’t like Mormons (or aren’t Mormon) shouldn’t move to Utah. It’s property of the United States, not the LDS Church. I don’t like cold weather but I live in Illinois, yet none of the cold-weather loving locals are running me out. But that’s the feeling many non-Mormon Utahns get. There’s the pastor’s daughter who ran for student council president, only to have the LDS parents and students rally against her because she wasn’t Mormon. There's the teacher who was almost fired for saying some people think Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet. And there’s the parent who doesn’t think twice about her daughter’s LDS friends but flips when she hears her non-LDS friend’s mom smokes.
But worst of all, there’s the envying. For a people who are told to live within their means, there are a lot of people living outside of them in Utah … which is why Utah has the highest bankruptcy, debt, mortgage fraud and business fraud rates in the country. And why walking into Café Rio can seem like a scene from the “Stepford Wives” with all the super-blonde, super-thin moms wearing their Hollister jeans and ordering a pork salad. (“Hold the pork, beans, rice, dressing and cheese.”)
I don’t entirely know why Utah of all places has such a problem with these things. But I think part of it is that a Utah Mormon’s social circle is geographically small. Because your church friends, your school friends and your neighbors all live on your block. Which means your immediate social circle sometimes spans a mere mile radius. And since that mile is typically populated with a similar demographic, you assume you should look, act, dress and buy like your friends. ("The Jones bought one so why can't we?") Or that you should get rich quick so you can.
Or maybe there’s something in the water.
I’ll tell you what it ain’t – fluoride.
But that’s another post.
So what do you think about Utah? Love it, hate it or baffled by it?
Dish.
That subject would be Utah Mormons or Utah in general.
Because it’s a love-hate web we all weave with the Beehive State.
Growing up LDS in Arizona, everybody talked about “Utah Mormons” – how they looked different (huge hair), talked different (“Oh my heck”) and worshipped different (“My son is so the AP and yours isn’t!”) . They had bigger Suburbans (12-15 seaters, seriously), bigger activities (“Take that ward budget!) and bigger complexes (“Am I as skinny as Sister Jones?”).
And there was some truth to it then. At that time, most people living in Utah were born and raised there. And, at that time, most of Utah was LDS. So many people confused the local culture with the local religion. (“Mom, is mutual a state law?”) Lines blurred between church and state, ward activities and social activities, personal standards and business ethics. So many youth never realized the religious importance of seminary but worried about the seminary council elections. And some residents judged each other on their church activity level rather than their neighborly kindness. For this reason, Utah Mormons got a bad reputation with Mormons in other states. We stereotyped them as more secular, less spiritual and sheltered.
But then people from other states and religions began to move in. The Mormon incomers encouraged the real essence of the LDS religion (Christ-like love, obedience and service) that already existed among most Utah Mormons and the non-Mormons helped define the line between being a Utahn and being a Mormon. Which helped everybody live a little better and little nearer to God, I think.
This is the Utah I lived in as a college student and newlywed. It’s still insanely Mormon, which is usually a good thing because it’s created a unique community where families look out for each other, neighbors know each other and safety and peace surround you. But Utah is growing, diversifying and opening its heart to other religions and the simple tenants of Mormonism. The hair is smaller, though still big. The Suburbans are more scarce, though still prominent. The ward activities are humbler, though still impressive.
But the complexes are still there … which is why I’m still hesitant about moving to Utah, although there is good and bad everywhere you go. (And most of this musing could be applied to any area with a high concentration of any religious or ethnic group.)
First, there is still a superiority complex among some Utah Mormons. As if living in Utah makes you a better Mormon, or that you care more about your family by moving there. I don’t think there’s anything wrong about living in Utah, but I don’t think there’s anything better about it either. And I DO NOT believe that your kids will turn out any better or any more active by growing up in Utah. If anything, I think they may have to work a little harder to gain a testimony since there are fewer missionary opportunities, easier rationalization (“But Kara is doing it and she’s a Mormon!”) and a greater chance for ignorance. And, let’s face it, teenagers like to be different. And being different in Utah often means being bad.
And don’t tell me that people who don’t like Mormons (or aren’t Mormon) shouldn’t move to Utah. It’s property of the United States, not the LDS Church. I don’t like cold weather but I live in Illinois, yet none of the cold-weather loving locals are running me out. But that’s the feeling many non-Mormon Utahns get. There’s the pastor’s daughter who ran for student council president, only to have the LDS parents and students rally against her because she wasn’t Mormon. There's the teacher who was almost fired for saying some people think Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet. And there’s the parent who doesn’t think twice about her daughter’s LDS friends but flips when she hears her non-LDS friend’s mom smokes.
But worst of all, there’s the envying. For a people who are told to live within their means, there are a lot of people living outside of them in Utah … which is why Utah has the highest bankruptcy, debt, mortgage fraud and business fraud rates in the country. And why walking into Café Rio can seem like a scene from the “Stepford Wives” with all the super-blonde, super-thin moms wearing their Hollister jeans and ordering a pork salad. (“Hold the pork, beans, rice, dressing and cheese.”)
I don’t entirely know why Utah of all places has such a problem with these things. But I think part of it is that a Utah Mormon’s social circle is geographically small. Because your church friends, your school friends and your neighbors all live on your block. Which means your immediate social circle sometimes spans a mere mile radius. And since that mile is typically populated with a similar demographic, you assume you should look, act, dress and buy like your friends. ("The Jones bought one so why can't we?") Or that you should get rich quick so you can.
Or maybe there’s something in the water.
I’ll tell you what it ain’t – fluoride.
But that’s another post.
So what do you think about Utah? Love it, hate it or baffled by it?
Dish.
(Updated - Having just received an email by a Utah Mormon who I not only adore but totally admire, who called into question the kindness of this post ... I had to make some explanations. First, I didn't mean to totally rip Utah. If I came across that way, I apologize. I did, however, want to generate some heat under the seat of a small minority of Utahns who keep negative stereotypes alive and well. I like Utah. I liked living there. I go there all the time to visit friends and family, all who don't behave in a manner unbecoming to their state or religion. I didn't mean to imply that all or even most of Utah Mormons do. I didn't mean to imply that it took non-Mormons and out-of-state Mormons to teach Utah natives the true meaning of the gospel. I just meant that they helped support and sustain the 99 percent of Utah Mormons who had been doing things right all along, all while having their image tarnished by the bad-behaving 1 percent. Or maybe it was more like 5 percent. In any event, I'm not here to expose the flaws of Utah as much as to debate the sentiment among some that Utah is the only good state out there. We all have weaknesses ... it just seems like Utah is less inclined to admit hers. But it probably wasn't my place to do it for her. Sorry!)
31 comments:
I live in Utah. I have on and off for the last 13 years (I spent 1 year as a nanny in the bay area and 18 months in Italy). I like it here, but it took a long time. I moved here in high school from California with high hopes of making friends and taking part in the opportunities that I believed existed because I would be living in a state with so many people that were similar to me in beliefs and morals. What I found was much different than I imagined. I think that there are so many labels (Relief Society President. Bishop, Nursery leader) and boundaries (ward, stake, region) that it keeps us from looking at those around us as real people with feelings, hopes, and dreams just like everyone else. Just because I am “only” a Sunday school teacher doesn’t mean that I am less of a person because I wasn’t called to a leadership position. Just because my neighbor who lives kitty corner is not in my ward doesn’t mean we can’t speak to one another. I’ve had to learn to adjust my thinking and attitudes to really enjoy and embrace the culture that I have chosen to live and raise my family in. Even if I am the new person in the neighborhood I may still have to go up to my neighbors and introduce myself. I am learning to accept that there are cliques in my ward and neighborhood and that I may be left out once in awhile because many choose to be exclusive rather than inclusive. This is the life that I have chosen and there are certainly great things about Utah, you take the good with the bad. All that said I do like it here (I don’t love it, but I like it). I can get up at six in the morning and go for a quick jog and feel completely safe. I can laugh at the 5 o’clock hard news story that consists of a fireman saving a kitten. I can look out my back window and enjoy the beautiful mountains. Am I baffled at Utah Mormons? Of course, but because I live here and I am a Mormon, I guess I should count myself as one of them.
I've sat here staring at the screen for 5 minutes because...I don't know where to begin? I seriously considered just saying "Amen" and leaving it at that. I considered ranting about the 2 really bad experiences I've had with Utah Mormons moving out here in the "mission field". One wreaked havoc (picture this: "My husband really feels inspired that he should have been called as EQP instead of Sunbeam teacher") before deciding they "were born Lehi people and will die Lehi people" and moved home to Lehi. Or when half our ward in Maryland was replaced by Utah Mormons when a local company transferred loads of families there (we called that "The Great Divide"...lots of patting people on heads telling them they were "so special" BUT "this is the way we do it in Utah")
On the other hand, there are people like CJane who single-handedly dispel the stereotypical Utah Mormon notion and I think "hmmmm, maybe there is hope for them?"
Great topic choice! I'm anxious to see others ring in with their viewpoints!
Great topic! I’ve thought a lot about this since all of my husband’s family lives there; and when he graduated from BYU we had to have the serious “should we stay or should we go” conversation. I loved it as a coed and newlywed but I’ve always thought I wouldn’t want to raise my family there, having seen that many of the stereotypes largely hold true. My one sister-in-law spent all of her formative years there, and while she turned out very well, there were issues with her high school friends… the “bad” kids were still all LDS, and peer pressure was immense, especially in the “gray areas” of immorality. My other sister-in-law, who is not from Utah but has lived there since college and is now raising family there, seems to have the “mom-peer-pressure” thing going on: who’s the most busy, who has their kids in the most after-school activities, who has the fanciest house, etc. and there seems to be a real environment of competition that these young mothers get caught up in, that I don’t feel at all here in AZ. I prefer to live a state away, where there’s a more “realistic” demographic (although I live in the East Valley so it’s pretty heavily LDS out here… although not quite like Utah) and my kids will, I think, benefit by knowing people of other faiths, but we are still close enough to visit two or three times a year. I think it’s beautiful there, and I’m glad we have family there so we have an excuse to visit.
oh man, mrs. dub, great topic as usual. i really 'preciate cha. :) utah has never held a dear place in my heart or my husband's, since we both come from convert parents and don't have roots there. we did live there for a few years for college, though. i mean, the mountains are pretty, but we'd never consider settling there simply because we have no reason to. there are way too many dentists and we don't have roots there. most of our friends in texas who hail from utah are very different and kind of stick out. they seem to have a hard time understanding and becoming friends with people who are different from them because they can't have a conversation without talking about sister so-and-so or enrichment night. they keep their 801 cell phone numbers so we all have to call long distance, they make trips to utah and only utah any chance they get, and act a little shocked when i tell them i'm not quite sure where riverton even is. i dunno. not my favorite place, but those mountains are amazing.
one more thing, am i evil that during conference talks about the tabernacle i totally tuned out? the tabernacle really doesn't mean anything to me, and i don't think people in japan could give a hoot either. i know, lightning strike is on its way. . .
ok, last thing. sorry. when i first moved to TX, i had a utah ID card (maintained my CA drivers' license, though) :), anyway, when i showed it after writing a check at the grocery store, the checkout girl had to call her manager over to see my ID. she had never heard of utah and didn't know it was a state. i said, "um, it's kind of by colorado? big mountains?" didn't ring a bell.
Oh, c'mon...Let's not pick on Utah! I think Utah is one of the United States best kept secrets! It has some of the most GORGEOUS/varying terrains, and the cities are CLEAN! I love downtown SLC! It is a treasure, whether you are a convert or not!
I am not from Utah, and only lived there through my BYU days. They were some of the funnest days of my life! I look back at that time with such fondness, but I don't really want to go back. not because I think that the Utah mormons are annoying or anything, I just really enjoy trying new things, and living in new areas. A few post's ago Mrs. Dub mentioned that she didn't quite yet feel like Chicago was home. To that I say...Make it home. Enjoy your time while you are there. Embrace the difference in culture and weather. Enjoy longing to be with your family...once you have moved on, you will miss it.
I think the same is true of Utah. It's different, it has it's own uniqueness (whether you like it or not). I like to appreciate things for what they are. While I lived in Utah, it was fun going to work and discussing our different callings in the church. Once we moved to Texas, I enjoyed discussing different religions and cultures! I love that every place is so different!
One thing I really think is crazy is people who think Utah really is Zion. My in-laws are bound and determined to make it back to Utah. They think that Utah is the only place they will be happy when they retire. It drives me crazy. But, to each his own--Do what makes you happy. Oh, and currently we have a family in our ward who want to move back to Utah because their "children are at the age where they will be making life-long friends." I hate that! We have good people here too! Whether they are members or not!
i think a lot of what has been said of utah can be said of other places, too.
now, i would not call myself a fan of the utah-mormon culture, but i feel some of those same weird things here in the az sometimes(and i felt some of them in the oc, too).
having said that, though, i am very grateful that i grew up in a place that was not so highly populated by lds people. i liked being one of a few members in my high school. i think it made me stronger and better.
like you said, mrs. dub, there are good and bad things about every place. let's just be grateful that for the most part we get to choose where we end up. and it sounds like most of us wouldn't choose utah, even though those mountains are really beautiful.
I love that you posted this and I love it even more that I happen to agree with you. My parents both graduated from BYU and loved Provo, but my father always said he would "never raise his children there." I think that has contributed to my negative feelings toward Utah (for all the reasons you mentioned), even though I lived there throughout college. My husband was born and raised in Utah and we have had far too many discussions on this exact topic. Good thing there are too many dentists there (we're in dental school right now) and my husband realizes that there is life outside of the Beehive state! I'm glad we can go back to visit, but I don't want it to be permanent. Besides, I hate snow! :)
i grew up in idaho and never wanted to live in utah (except for the years i hoped to spend at byu). many of the stereotypes mentioned were turnoffs for me. while at byu, i married a wonderful guy from california, and as graduation approached he started applying for computer jobs all over the place. just before that, the computer industry hit a bump (or something), people were getting laid off left and right, and jobs were really hard to find. eventually, he applied with a company here in utah and was hired. we gratefully took the job and here we are, 7 years later, still in utah. (lots of background, sorry)
i didn't expect to like it, but for the most part, i do. it's kind of interesting to read how utah mormons are seen by others. the mom competition stuff -do you mean that doesn't exist other places??? i sure wish it didn't here. i'm resistant to it, but still feel the pressure to have my kids doing everything, and to be perfect myself.
i see the envying mrs. dub mentioned. not so much where we live now, but when we lived in condos (around other young married people) i did. we live in a neighborhood of grandmas and grandpas, so the pressure for us is to mow our lawn. ;) but in younger neighborhoods and newer ones i really wonder how people afford the big houses, two BIG cars, expensive preschools, gobs of extra activities, great clothes, and SCHOOL at the same time. it's amazing.
anyway, the part of idaho i grew up in was much like utah as far as concentration of lds, so it's hard for me to see a huge difference. (are members of the church in kentucky different from members here?) i think it would be cool to live somewhere else and see what life outside the bubble is like. but at the same time, i really like being close to byu. right now i have a sister-in-law and two brothers there. it's great to see them as often as we do. so until our siblings stop coming here, i'm happy to stay. we've got a great view of those mountains that people keep mentioning. :)
My grandchildren have been barred from playing with some of the neighbor children because they're "not the right religion." My daughter and her husband have been excluded from various activites at work and in their neighborhood for the same reason. The first question she usually is asked when she meets someone at a PTA or other parent's meeting is what church she attends. When she gives the "wrong" answer, the conversation usually stops there.
Sound familiar? Yes, my daughter and her family are Mormons living in the bible belt community of Denton Texas. I guess it's always hard to live in a culture that you're not really a part of.
OK, so this is my third time to try and comment, somehow the first two went up in smoke. And to that I can only say . . . Heck.
Here is the perspective from someone who is a)old as dirt and b)lived the first half of my life in Utah and the second half outside. . .
Basically, what I want to say is that we ALL need to look inside ourselves to see if the stereotypes apply and learn from them. I came from a part-member family in the 50s/60s in SLC and I am here to tell you -- it wasn't always pretty. Many members labeled us as a second-class family or felt the need to intervene where they shouldn't have because they felt my (sweet, wonderful) mother wasn't capable. From that I have learned to treat those from part-member families . . . um . . . just like everyone else. I have had experiences in numerous callings both in YW and RS where those lessons were invaluable. I have also recalled TONS of lessons learned from WONDERFUL members of that Utah ward who helped me and my family immensely. Couldn't have done it without them.
We did make the choice not to raise our kids in Utah and haven't regretted it at all . . . but we haven't really dwelled on it either. I have always read those statistics about bankruptcy etc. and immediately . . . looked inside myself to see if those reasons and rationalizations could apply to me.
Bottom Line: Are we inclusive? Are we looking down on ANYONE because of our church membership? Are we doing our part to further the Kingdom . . . the worldwide family. Are we ridding our vocabulary of "part", "less" "in-" and "non".
Now -- bring on more pictures of the lil' Miss. Nothing comes closer to "teaching the world to sing . . ."
Love, mommie
OOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo - my fingers are itching! :D Having been raised (for the most part) in Utah (though MN and AZ are also in my portfolio), I feel as though I have a lot to say - I will try to be brief. I must also say that if you disagree with me that's fine - these are my opinions, having lived there for 17+ years and having lived 5 years outside, my experience is my own.
First, let me get a few things out of the way - I have to say that I don't hate Utah, because I love the life that I've lived. Yes, there is a very distinct Utah-Mormon culture, which I dare say, everyone BUT Utah-Mormons can see as clear as day. The most annoying part element for me is when people combine the church and their families (which all live within a ten mile radius, curiously enough - my family is one of them - both sides of the family seriously that close in milage. makes for very long holidays going back and forth, back and forth, but that's a different topic all together!) and then say they are too busy for anything/anyone that doesn't fit into one of those partitions. I think people really do themselves a disservice when they try to "simplify" their lives that way ("we don't know our neighboors because they are related to us and aren't members of the ward.") Like someone else said, I think this happens everywhere there is a strong cultural majority - it's just that UMs do an exceptionally good (which is to mean bad) job at it.
Second, the UM stereotype is a real thing, my friends. My husband and his friends, when coming to BYU, knew full well what marrying a Utah Girl would most likey include: not only having to find a job in a HIGHLY oversaturated market, [I don't care what your field is, finding a job there, unless you know a guy/are related to said guy, is a joke. My dad took a 50% pay cut by moving back to Utah - that's insane - ya, money's not everything, but when you plan on having four kids and providing for them for 20 years, that 50% goes a long way.] but also having to live within a ten mie radius of her family. Sure puts a damper on the whole cleaving thing. Boy did I give him a pleasant surprise when I said neither was a requirement for me. But really, I had roommates and am related to girls that fit this mold perfectly - talk about high maitence. Get this - my cousin made her husband promise her that if he took the job outside Utah, that EVERY SINGLE CHRISTMAS would have to be spent with HER family in Utah (dude, what about the other side of the family?) because "Christmas isn't Christmas in Arizona" - whatever. Life is what you make it, not what you've known.
Third, I too love the beauty and church heritage of Utah, but not so much that I need to live there. Luckily, my parents and both sets of grandparents live there, so I can get all the mountainy and churchy stuff done when I go there and then return to my life elsewhere. I get what people have said about wanting to provide their kids with a more realistic experience growning up (don't want to be the only Mormon at their HS, yet don't want their minds to be filled with seminary council elections - TOTALLY saw that in full and living color - GAG!) - that's why we've chosen Colorado - close enough but not too close; we want a life experience for our family that you can't get when you are the majority in a culturally saturated enviorment. I grew up watching the priests in my ward bless the sacrament on Sunday, knowing full well just what they were doing the night before - "the stepford wives" illusuion is also very keen - seen it in action.
Again, this can happen anywhere, we just don't want to willingly be a part of it.
okay should have proof-read my lengthy comment before hitting publish - the line in the second paragraph regarding people " simplifying" their social calendars should have read "we don't know our neighboors because they AREN'T related to us and aren't members of the ward." - sorry.
My comments are for Leslie... The dedication of the Tabernacle really has nothing to do with Utah, besides the fact that it is in Utah. Are you that uninterested in the history of the Church? I am not from Utah, but funny enough, I enjoyed the details given about the new Tabernacle. But whatever, that's just me. Second, your friends from Utah "stick out"?? I am from Arizona, my family is in Arizona and I am currently residing in Michigan. Believe me, every chance I get, I fly to Arizona. Perhaps those people that fly home to Utah all the time are concerned about seeing their families?? Could that be it? Or perhaps the people that were shocked that you didn't know where Riverton is were only shocked because you actually lived in Utah and you don't know. Like someone living in Phoenix and not knowing where Mesa is. Interesting. I understand for the most part what you are saying, but I think it was A) rude and B) unfounded.
Wow. Everyone's comments have been so interesting. Following Anonymous's advice to look inward, I must admit that I have harbored a lifelong prejudice against Utah Mormons. Thus, I was horrified when my Dad pointed out a few years ago that, due to the fact that I was a BYU baby and earned two degrees from BYU, I had spent nine years of my life in Provo as opposed to the twelve I had spent in my home state of AZ. I finally had to own up to the Utahn within.
That said, I actually think Utah Mormons have come a long way in the past fifteen years. I think this is due to the fact that (a) lots of non-Utahns (both LDS and otherwise) are moving into Utah, and (b) Utah is exporting a lot of heck-swearing people product to other states, particularly the Western ones, due to the supply/demand problem with jobs that so many people have already noted. With the ever-changing demographics of the Church, I am sure that within a decade it will not be "Utah Mormons" but "American Mormons" that the majority of the members snicker about.
One thing about the evolution of the Utah Mormon is particularly disturbing to me, though. Years ago, the hallmark of the Utah Mormon Woman was her denim jumper, homely haircut, and food storage skills. I never really liked that image--but it seems that the old emphasis on domestic skills and humble appearance has been replaced by rampant materialism and vanity, which is even worse (and I say that with full recognition of being somewhat hypocritical). Anyhow, it's nice to know I'm not the only one who noticed it.
i live in utah and have for a decade ...heck (and yes, i did just say heck) i even served my mission here. i think it's great! i will be sad to move (and it's not just because i hate change IN ALL THINGS!)
i personally love it when my third grade students start to sing primary songs while they are working on cursive. i giggle when they get into arguments over whether or not there is a fourth nephi in the book of mormon. it makes me smile when they call me "sister r." (they also call me mom and grandma--which is more offensive.)
today we went on a field trip to "this is the place park" in slc. it cracks me up when people get all worked up that the religious, cultural and educational lines are blurred. utah's roots are in religion. deal with it. brigham young was an incredible colonist and city planner ...by the way, he's mormon AND a polygamist. that's the history.
i think all the stuff people have said is just lame if they really get as worked up as they portray in their comments. so much of what happens here in utah is hysterical. what a unique place. it is supposed to be. from the very beginning the settlers looked for isolation. (i re-learned that today on our field trip.) people from utah are different. they stick out in other areas. so do people from southern california--i can always pick them out. so do people from the east coast--they make me feel at home. being from the east coast, i welcome that. i consider it a compliment (even if it is not meant to be one) when people say, "you're from the east coast, aren't you?"
DARN STRAIGHT!
we shouldn't rail on people or mock them or make fun of them just because they love where they came from. (EAST COAST!!) embrace it. learn about it. roll your eyes and giggle if it bothers you. and just face it, some things about utah are just "oh-my-heck" different.
...and we like it that way.
p.s.
i actually like green jell-o with pineapple chunks in it.
:D
wow! thanks to everyone for their great responses. what i value most about Hot Topic Tuesday is everyone's honesty, even when it isn't politically correct or sugar-coated. i think we all have complicated feelings about a lot of issues and this is the forum to think it through ... even when it's not what everyone wants to hear.
(i think i've proven that point over and over haven't i?)
i'd prefer it wasn't a forum to attack someone else's opinions, however. you can express your different POV, but no personal attacks, please.
that said, i have love/hate relationship with HTT. i love to have an outlet for my thoughts. i love to hear your responses (whether you agree or not). but i do worry that i might be encouraging too much debate and not enough discussion.
but that's a topic for another HTT, i suppose.
in the meantime, keep 'em coming.
I enjoyed my time in Utah. I went to BYU, met my husband there, lived our first two years of marriage there, and had my first baby in Orem. I have pleasant memories. We have extended family there, and I enjoy the chances we have to visit. I love many things about Utah.
I have to add another comment about the mountains. They are absolutely gorgeous. When my husband and I packed up and drove the moving truck out of Utah, knowing we'd never live there again, tears were streaming down my face as we left the valley. "I'm really going to miss those mountains," I said. And that was the only thing I was sad about.
I have tried to not stereotype people from Utah, because as Stephanie said, every culture has it's uniqueness. But as most have mentioned from personal experience, the stereotypes do hold true for the most part. (Loved Natalie's description, by the way!) It's sad, like Ginny mentioned, that the old stereotype has morphed. I am glad I do not live there and feel the pressure so many Utah ladies feel. I have lived in Ohio, Utah, and Arizona, and ONLY in Utah was I ever asked about what my calling in the ward was (and made to feel bad that even as a return missionary, I was "only" on the Enrichment board).
But those who live in Utah can embrace its uniqueness, and like Mrs. R said, it really can be an enjoyable place. Just like Chicagoland can be an enjoyable place for the Dubs if they so choose. And Toledo, Ohio, was a super enjoyable place for me & my little fam.
ps. To Mrs. Dub's mommie: you are by no means "old as dirt" and I loved your perspective and advice!
Unfortunately, Jessica, sarcasm doesn't really translate on blog comments. Maybe my comment was a little bit rude, but I don't think it was "unfounded," since it was my opinion after all. I probably shouldn't have said that most of my friends from Utah "stick out," since it's really not most of them, but it's true that it's quite obvious, in our experience, which members were raised in Utah and which weren't. Not that there's anything wrong with being from Utah, but really, there aren't many places in this country more homogenous, and I think that gives people (like missionaries, for example) from that society a disadvantage should they ever leave. The family I was specifically thinking of in my comment just put their house here in TX on the market. They can't decide if they should buy their next house north or south of SLC.
We've had several wonderful, faithful families from our TX ward/stake who have just settled in Utah, where I feel that they are just thrown into a big black hole of other faithful, dutiful, musically talented members. We need more people like that everywhere else, too. It's just a shame when all those good people live along a 50 mile stretch of I-15.
As for my tabernacle comment, I stand by it. I hate to admit that church history has never been one of my interests, and I just don't think that the historical significance of that one building has much to do with members in Ghana. I know that's bad form, but that's how I feel, and Mrs. Dub said she wanted honesty. :)
It looks like the forum is closed... but what the heck- I'll put in my two cents anyhow. I have always said "I'd never want to raise a family in Utah", for most of the reasons already stated. My cousin who is from southern Cali, taught seminary in Utah valley and LOVES the youth like no other. He was very saddened by the fact that the kids who were 'making bad choices' are sadly, LDS. Anywhere you go you're going to have that element, and because of the demographic, those kids are unfortunately LDS.
I have to say, moving to Texas as a freshman in HS I experienced a lot of what would stereotypically go on "in Utah"... In my ward/HS in TX. I really didn't have any Good LDS friends. It was the "southern baptists" and others who became my friends. The girls were especially 'exclusive' and competitive. It sucked.
Having said that, I would love to live in Utah for a while and finish school at BYU. (Or at BYUI) My husband could grow his fruit trees... and I could soak up my education from the awesome professors at BYU. Then we could hail back to where ever (TX?) I think it would be a good experience for my kids too, we'll see.
But, no, I'm not particularly a fan of "Utah". I love the weather and the mountains and there a lot of people that I really love, that live there. I wish for Utahs sake, and the members who live there that the 'stereotype' could be shaken, but that would probably take as many years to be undone, as it's taken to create it.
I forgot to say this and it's one thing I really like about Utah (and other states are probably more decent in this way as well... I don't get out of Houston very much)
... and that is that you don't get bombarded by an onslaught of billboards advertising strip clubs (or pass one every two miles on the I-15), Adult video or lingerie shops and scantily clad, or almost not clad at all women advertising a DARQUE tan. I HATE SEEING THAT STUFF! and it is REALLY bad here.
I had to say it. thanks for listening.
oh and something else I wanted to say and forgot. I did my student teaching in Lehi, UT which was a sur-real teaching experience on the whole. I had to laugh at Mrs. R's comments but at the same time remember that when I was teaching it rubbed me wrong when a student's excuse to why they didn't turn in their assigned work was, "I had Young Women's last night - I didn't have time." Right - and I was instructed that that was a legitimate excuse and to let it slide. REALLY not okay by me. Don't get me wrong - going to your Beehive activity is what you should be doing, but just becuase you make a good choice in one aspect of your life doesn't excuse bad choices in others. ONLY in Utah, my friends. Just had to share.
dear jessica,
guess what. i lived in utah for 6 years and i don't know where riverton is, either. does that make me a bad person?
stephanie
i'm so glad my sister's got my back. love you steph. :)
ladies,
i would like to tell everyone where riverton is.
it is west of draper and sandy. southwest of salt lake. it's just barely north of point of the mountain --but on the other side of the I-15 that the actual mountain.
now jessica, you can stop getting on people for not knowing geography.
for the record, i thought spain was in south america until the end of my freshman year ...in college.
does that make me a bad person?
Guess what. I don't care if you don't know where Riverton is. Clearly, you missed the point. I was merely standing up for poor little Leslie's "friend" who is so naive, she can't even carry on a conversation.
How's that for sarcasm on a blog comment? Did you catch it?
This is the best debate ever!!! Way to go, Mrs. Dub!
since when am i "poor little leslie"? do i know you jessica?
didn't think so.
sheesh.
Thanks for the geography lesson... I've lived in Utah 15 years and I've heard of Riverton, but didn't know where it was!
Utah is not my favorite place. I HATE being cold and lots of other things that have already been said. But there is so much to love here that we are making the most of it.
I don't plan on living here forever, but I hope we can take the good with us. I hope my children choose to live within a 20 minute drive (yes... I want to babysit my grandkids!). I hope all of their very best friend share the same goals and values that they do. Most of all I hope they learn that we are part of an amazing religion and are really lucky to be surrounded by it in both a visual way and with many people we meet here.
Every place has its quirkiness (going to BYU after growing up in Louisiana exposed me to a whole new world of OC and AZ that I never knew!) Keeping a sense of humor through it all can make any place enjoyable.
Wow--I am new to your blog but must say I think this post was misinformed, offensive and just plain rude. I live in the Bay Area, but I don't understand why non-Utah Mormons feel they have the right to say such mean things about Utah just because they are LDS. I am disappointed, and don't think "I didn't mean to be offensive" justifies this.
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